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The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??

SynixMan

SynixMan

Mobilizer Extraordinaire
pilot
Contributor
MGoBrew11 said:
Agree to disagree I guess, not going to dislike your post though haha

Like you said skillbridge and COOL are tough and/or not even options anymore. UMPP you still need to get your ATP before you onboard, so it’s not really any different than any other CJO. I disagree GI Bill is equivalent to some kind of grant. Using your GI Bill on a CTP/ATP for a value of about $10,000 is an absolute waste of money when you could use that GI Bill for an MBA or on your kid’s undergrad for a value of closer to $100,000.

EDIT: and as an addendum, my point was more with military aviators that don’t have the ME time and could use the money to build it. Yeah, in the grand scheme of things a CTP/ATP is a drop in the bucket if you’re going to the airlines. But if you’re a rotor guy and have to get that plus build a ridiculous amount of ME turbine time, it adds up….why not make it easier for those folks to get to the point where they are seen as “airline ready”? Maybe I’m biased as a RW to FW transition but what the airlines currently look for )market based of course) is way more than what it takes to get a seasoned rotary naval aviator ready to fly airliners.
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Gotta keep you on your toes with a dislike 🤣

I'm all for making helo bubbas more competitive, but it's a pretty good time to be helo pilot making the jump (2021-2023 was probably the best we will see). Multiple regionals and LCCs are offering transition programs that were pipe dreams a decade ago. Uncle Sam footing 20k in time building to get to FAR minimums is a bit of a stretch IMO, but the GI Bill is there or you can proactively plan for some lean years and not buy the new Honda Odyssey Onyx Edition on your shore tour.

Granted I don't have kiddos so passing along my GI Bill wasn't and isn't a priority, but if we change our mind I have a state GI Bill that will pay out 100% of in state tuition, so there's multiple ways to skin that cat and still keep some scratch aside for the absurdly unnecessary midlife crisis sportscar/plane/boat/second family/whatever.
 
zippy

zippy

Freedom!
pilot
Contributor
MGoBrew11 said:
Yeah understood and no real beef with it.

My thought overall though is that from a dollars perspective, it would seem that focusing on transitioning military makes more sense.

When you talk about sinking money into Joe or Josephine Blow off the street and turning them into an airline pilot, that is a substantial cost. There are tons of eager military folks ready to go. Removing one more barrier, financial or otherwise, for them helps tap into that potential…and they are already proven and experienced. RTPs are gaining more traction but some sort of grant for that would be ideal. I really don’t think a 2,000 hr helo aviator needs another 1,000 turbine to be a successful airline pilot.
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A grant program for the multi engine rating would be awesome, unfortunately airline management isn‘t likely to give something for nothing as long as they have any qualified applicants on file. Maybe some of the new congress mandated grant money will morph into something useful in that regard. Until then RTP programs will probably continue to be the only avenue from the airlines, and even then their availability will ebb and flow based on qualified fixed wing applicants due to increased training events associated with RTP pilots (usually Army helo pilots due to having no fixed wing training before entering the program so they’re entering airline training after flying circles vfr for 200ish hours).

Griz882 said:
I’m hardly clued in to how the process works beyond a young person spending a small fortune to amass 1500 hours. I admired the old European system of an-initio training direct from the airline but even that is disappearing, so I guess offering more training grants could be a good thing.
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Ab-initio seems to be the obvious long term choice to fix the projected shortage but that’s billions of dollars the airlines are going to have to spend on applicants up front which they don’t want to do. Airline pilots on the line don’t want that either because any money spent on pilots not hired will come at the expense of current pilot pay and benefits. Several airlines are currently doing a half assed version where a candidate has to qualify for a flight training loan through a preferred vendor where the loans are deferred throughout training and can go through a company approved flight school then on to an affiliated 121 or 135 airline for a number of years before going to the mainline airline at ATP minimums. United bought own flight school for their (heavily criticized due to DEI focus) version of the program and they are waiving the costs of the ppl portion of the program for accepted applicants who are approved for funding but it’s generally been viewed as a disaster of a program to time to train issues (years to get to the hours required for a commercial license... everyone I know associated with it quietly got promoted out of their positions) My guess is they won’t be eager to full blown Ab-initio as long as applicants with an unrestricted ATP and a pulse are applying. Right now event shit regionals have between 2500-3300 applicants on file and the FAA issued 7500 ATP certificates last year (up 125% from 2020) so the pilot shortage may somewhat self correct due to market forces moving forward.
 
Griz882

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
zippy said:
Right now event shit regionals have between 2500-3300 applicants on file and the FAA issued 7500 ATP certificates last year (up 125% from 2020) so the pilot shortage may somewhat self correct due to market forces moving forward.
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I assume you have the numbers right, so your analysis is spot on. If people have the money to spend, let them spend it.
 
ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Oh for the Good Ol' Days!

448035255_986024256296630_773630426320140898_n.jpg
 
Bad_Karma_1310

Bad_Karma_1310

Well-Known Member
pilot
HuggyU2 said:
There is no pilot shortage.

Unless you're working at USAF Personnel. If that's the case, yes... you have a serious f'in problem.
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I know issues separate from the point of the thread but the Navy is probably in a worse spot than the AF.

Plus at least a when the AF loses someone they have the chance to still “retain” them in the reserves/guard. The Navy doesn’t even have that bench to pull from.
 
MIDNJAC

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
Fallonflyr said:
These investors only care about their short term profits, never give a shit about the long term interest of the company and it’s employees.
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Yeah I believe this is what immediately precedes asset stripping, historically, no? Hopefully in this case, that won't be the case.
 
ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
The airline corporate drama in the US is unending. It seems like Scott Kirby at United and Ed Bastian at Delta are the only two to make a success of it post deregulation.
 
SynixMan

SynixMan

Mobilizer Extraordinaire
pilot
Contributor
ChuckMK23 said:
The airline corporate drama in the US is unending. It seems like Scott Kirby at United and Ed Bastian at Delta are the only two to make a success of it post deregulation.
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Huh? The Big 3 and SWA all print money at this point barring something like COVID. Richard Anderson made DAL a behemoth and Doug Parker is doing fine at AAL. They built the companies to weather a regular recession fine. None of them can buy enough planes to sustain their growth desires.

The soft parts of the industry are the ULCCs and regionals who built their business on unlimited cheap labor, and to a lesser degree, cargo.
 
Hair Warrior

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
SynixMan said:
None of them can buy enough planes to sustain their growth desires.
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As a regular airline passenger, I feel like airport infrastructure is more of a LIMFAC than plane quantity. Right? It feels like it would take 5 years and $100M per airport to add just 1 new terminal to each airport.
 
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