Typical day-to-day life

[DanMa1156]

The most important part of "officership" is being proficient at employing your aircraft in a lethal manner.

It seems more and more like the word "flying" is an F word and "officership" a word thrown around by people who think ground jobs and non-flying related duties are more important than actually being competent in your platform.

I don't disagree with you, but when I compare my first tour of just over 700 hours to my AF friends in similar platforms who got over 1200, it's clear to me that the emphasis was on flying them more. Also, in exercises, like Red Flag, my counterparts for planning were Majors, not Captains, so I'm calling an ace an ace here and suggesting that the Air Force, as far as JO's go - seems to care about flying and the Navy cares a little more about rounding out the officership qualities; or maybe it's just that we fly less. Do not confuse me by thinking I am suggesting the Air Force is better - I just believe they are a professional organization, but they do have their own set of problems too.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Sorry, do you mean USAF CSAR Hawk pilot as commissioned USAF officer could have 1200 in a year? Army CWO pilot in original 60 model, as far as I know, gets about 2000. Is that because he shouldn't make admin/paper jobs?

 

[MIDNJAC]

The most important part of "officership" is being proficient at employing your aircraft in a lethal manner.

It seems more and more like the word "flying" is an F word and "officership" a word thrown around by people who think ground jobs and non-flying related duties are more important than actually being competent in your platform.

I think I've told this story here before, but it bears repeating. My last fleet skipper sat all us dumb dumbs down as we took over our DivO jobs, all of us also starting level III/the heart of the VFA syllabus. His parting shot (or maybe initial) was that if anything has to fall out due to task saturation, he expected that we would shed our ground jobs first. That was one of the best things a Skipper has ever told me, but that was his style. He did the right thing, and didn't give a shit what the consequences were, whether that be with JO's or covering our asses with CAG. They don't make many like him anymore, but if he told me that we were strafing an SA-20, I'd follow him right in there.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I don't disagree with you, but when I compare my first tour of just over 700 hours to my AF friends in similar platforms who got over 1200, it's clear to me that the emphasis was on flying them more. Also, in exercises, like Red Flag, my counterparts for planning were Majors, not Captains, so I'm calling an ace an ace here and suggesting that the Air Force, as far as JO's go - seems to care about flying and the Navy cares a little more about rounding out the officership qualities; or maybe it's just that we fly less. Do not confuse me by thinking I am suggesting the Air Force is better - I just believe they are a professional organization, but they do have their own set of problems too.

I think part of that is also that a USN LT is basically equivalent to a USAF Major when it comes to responsibility (and maybe even total flight hours in some communities). There are a lot of Lt Cols running around that are my age and only have maybe 4-5 more years TIS. 2 below is the norm for shithot dudes/dudettes from what I have been told. 1 below zone is fleet average, and in zone is like a death sentence.

 

[Python]

I think I've told this story here before, but it bears repeating. My last fleet skipper sat all us dumb dumbs down as we took over our DivO jobs, all of us also starting level III/the heart of the VFA syllabus. His parting shot (or maybe initial) was that if anything has to fall out due to task saturation, he expected that we would shed our ground jobs first. That was one of the best things a Skipper has ever told me, but that was his style. He did the right thing, and didn't give a shit what the consequences were, whether that be with JO's or covering our asses with CAG. They don't make many like him anymore, but if he told me that we were strafing an SA-20, I'd follow him right in there.

I wish this could be stickied.

 

[scoolbubba]

More than a couple O-5s (outside tacair, no less) 'leading' squadrons with less than 2000 hours of total (screw) time. Hmmmm. They, coincidentally, seem to care more about TPS reports than airborne proficiency.

I would say it's just ducks picking ducks, but ducks go fly from time to time.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I wish this could be stickied.

Lucky for you, he is going to be your Skipper. I'm jealous bro

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Don't hesitate to strafe SA-20, by the way. If you can lay a gun crosshair on it, you are in it's blind spot

 

[Gonzo08]

Don't hesitate to strafe SA-20, by the way. If you can lay a gun crosshair on it, you are in it's blind spot

Yeah, but getting there is the hard part...

 

[Flash]

I don't disagree with you, but when I compare my first tour of just over 700 hours to my AF friends in similar platforms who got over 1200, it's clear to me that the emphasis was on flying them more.....Do not confuse me by thinking I am suggesting the Air Force is better - I just believe they are a professional organization, but they do have their own set of problems too.

I wouldn't translate your experience with that one community in the USAF into what generally happens. I knew plenty of USAF folks who had a similar number or even less hours than their contemporaries in the Navy, albeit with less leadership experience in the air as we usually got in our first tour.

That 'officership' strain cuts both ways too, with aviators in the Navy generally getting a lot more responsibility at a much more junior level than our counterparts in the USAF.

 

[DanMa1156]

I wouldn't translate your experience with that one community in the USAF into what generally happens. I knew plenty of USAF folks who had a similar number or even less hours than their contemporaries in the Navy, albeit with less leadership experience in the air as we usually got in our first tour.

That 'officership' strain cuts both ways too, with aviators in the Navy generally getting a lot more responsibility at a much more junior level than our counterparts in the USAF.

That's ultimately what I was getting at. In planning Red Flag, like I said, as a first tour LT, my USAF Counterparts were almost all Majors. The Captains that were there seemed to serve in an administrative side of the house, but I may be wrong. At the CAOC, our JO's reported the same thing - their counterparts were mostly Majors.

 

[DanMa1156]

Sorry, do you mean USAF CSAR Hawk pilot as commissioned USAF officer could have 1200 in a year? Army CWO pilot in original 60 model, as far as I know, gets about 2000. Is that because he shouldn't make admin/paper jobs?

That number seems a bit high for a junior 60 Pilot. Now, in fairness, their CWO program isn't quite comparable to the Navy's officers - they are not expected to have "officer" responsibilities out of the cockpit or unrelated to flight / tactics. Their Captains will stop flying well before they hit 1,000 hours. The ones we met on deployment were just about done flying and one was at 500 total hours and the other was just shy of 800 total hours.

 

[DanMa1156]

I wouldn't translate your experience with that one community in the USAF into what generally happens. I knew plenty of USAF folks who had a similar number or even less hours than their contemporaries in the Navy, albeit with less leadership experience in the air as we usually got in our first tour.

That 'officership' strain cuts both ways too, with aviators in the Navy generally getting a lot more responsibility at a much more junior level than our counterparts in the USAF.

And while hours may not be the best indication of whose focus is more on flying, perhaps their career pipeline is, whereas a Naval Aviator's career pipeline gets progressively harder to fly with each and every tour, that is not quite the case for an Air Force pilot until after the rank of Major, is it not? There is no "disassociated tour" for the typical Air Force JO.

 

[Flash]

And while hours may not be the best indication of whose focus is more on flying, perhaps their career pipeline is, whereas a Naval Aviator's career pipeline gets progressively harder to fly with each and every tour, that is not quite the case for an Air Force pilot until after the rank of Major, is it not? There is no "disassociated tour" for the typical Air Force JO.

It depends, but you are generally right. They have many more staff positions at the Major, Lt Col and Col levels that allow them to fly even when not in command where we don't have as many like that. It comes with its own baggage though and sometimes less flight hours.

 

[DanMa1156]

It depends, but you are generally right. They have many more staff positions at the Major, Lt Col and Col levels that allow them to fly even when not in command where we don't have as many like that. It comes with its own baggage though and sometimes less flight hours.

Yeah, but certainly not less hours than a shooter or a TAO; nor at the O-4 level of DESRON staffer, Strike Ops, etc. etc, all of which are none, and routinely appear in Navy Pilots' careers.