Unauthorized passengers and stops

[MasterBates]

So nobody’s gonna tell the story about the T-45 incident? …

I figured even though I knew the gory details, I would let someone that's a little more "respectable" tell it.

After all, I am but helo-scum.

 

[phrogpilot73]

I seem to remember reading an approach article about a helo crew that decided they'd fly their wives around. Ended up balling up the aircraft something fierce and either their wives were seriously hurt, or killed.

Found it. Both wives were killed, one guy was 2 years away from retirement. No mechanical error found...

 

[xj220]

What are the dynamics of such a large plane as it stalls? I know with small planes it's pretty harmless, but what about one of the big birds?

 

[MasterBates]

Helo stalling is bad ju-ju. Really bad.

 

[mb1k]

What are the dynamics of such a large plane as it stalls? I know with small planes it's pretty harmless, but what about one of the big birds?

With all swept wing jets, the wing tips usually stall first. In this case, big jet, big wings, there are mechanical provisions in place to make the wing root stall first. This gives the pilot spoiler (in this case) lateral control till the very last. The 135 will just start a nose down pitch moment when stalled. It's not practiced anymore (maybe in tankers still), but easily recoverable and with plenty of warning and feedback.

 

[xj220]

I take it in that particular instant she just kept pulling back on the stick and there was no real chance of recovery?

 

[mb1k]

I take it in that particular instant she just kept pulling back on the stick and there was no real chance of recovery?

Negative, the control forces required to fight for straight and level became so excessive from all the nose up trim, that the pilot had a hard time overcoming them. Even with the yoke full forward, the jet kept pitching up.

I didn't read the SIR, but this was relayed to us during ground school in systems class.

And that's a "yoke" by the way young'n. NOT a stick, learn it now or you'll have a tough life if P-3'ville.

 

[xj220]

I see, the trim was too far up preventing a normal recovery.

 

[nittany03]

I see, the trim was too far up preventing a normal recovery.

This is why they always tell you to stop trimming at a certain airspeed, and then hold the nose up with back stick only when practicing stalls or approaches thereto. i.e, "Don't trim into the stall!"

 

[xj220]

That makes sense, but couldn't they have put the trim back down, or was it too late?

 

[plc67]

One of my jobs in the DC8 was to do maintenance flights after D checks(think I got that right.) You took it to the shaker, powered up and recovered. In the 61 series 8 you got the buffet before the shaker when you were clean. You stopped trim at 1.5Vso so that when you stalled you stalled towards aerodynamic recovery. You also wanted all 4engines spooled before setting MCT. It was also a good idea for you to start the power up and not the FE. Get asymmetrical spool up and she'll be on her back faster than a Po LBFM.
Keep in mind if you depart controlled flight and get too aggressive with recovery the old stall speed increasing with the square of Gs comes into play. Not to mention DC8s ain't certified for aerobatics.
We lost a crew of excellent men doing a stall in the 8, so you want to bring your a game on the post heavy maintenance flights.
Another Iphone post so deal with it.

 

[FLYTPAY]

My T-2 partner in VT-86 took his girlfriend on a XC in a T-39 between the end of T-2's (and his soft-winging, he was just along for the ride) and his real winging. Apparently he got it okayed from Ops and the instructor on the flight was okay with it.

I thought they were just getting a ride back from where they were. They saw the T-39 pull up and they asked if they could hitch a ride back. The girlfriend was aboard for a low level and all.

We shut down the left side and I went down the stairs, walked up to the drive thru and ordered for the crew.

Sounds like a 3P job.

 

[nittany03]

That makes sense, but couldn't they have put the trim back down, or was it too late?

I'm not an engineer or a heavy pilot, but once the aircraft departs controlled flight, you are at the mercy of inertia. The airplane is normally a mass moving through the air according to the laws of physics. "Departure from controlled flight" happens when the inertial forces acting on the aircraft cannot be overcome by movement of the controls. In other words, the airflow over the control surfaces can no longer generate appreciable force in the way it was designed. They won't do what you ask them to do.

So if you're way the heck into deep stall, trimming down may not do anything, because now the relative wind is coming more from below the aircraft than the front, and the wings are acting more as a sail, not an airfoil. Due to the laws of aerodynamics, control surfaces can do weird things in this regime if injudiciously deflected into the airstream, leading to such bad things as "adverse yaw departures," "rudder swap departures" and inverted spins.

Each tactical jet has a boldface procedure for these "post-stall gyrations" (or "post-departure gyrations" if you're a certain retired O-6 sim instructor in Meridian ). This positions the control surfaces in a position to where they will impart the least amount of weirdness to the aircraft's already jacked up aerodynamic state. The goal here is that, since the aircraft is bleeding kinetic energy as it whirls around, it will eventually do one of two things:

1. Preferably, it will stop gyrating and naturally seek a nose down position from which airspeed will increase and you can recover from the unusual attitude.
2. Not so preferably, it will fall into some variety of spin, from which there are other procedures which need to be completed involving the rudders.

Other things to keep in mind are that jet engines like airflow coming from straight ahead. High AOAs and turbulent airflow make them mad and cause them to chug, surge, overtemp, and make very scary noises. So you may also have engine issues to deal with if you're way outside the envelope.

Compound this with the fact that a Boeing 707, barrel rolls over Seattle notwithstanding, isn't designed to depart controlled flight. Heavy guys back me up, but I would be willing to bet that beyond a certain point, you would either not have enough altitude to recover the jet, or the forces involved in a PSG would rip the wings off.

 

[BigIron]

My first flight in an OH6 after checking out. The HAC says we're going down to a grass strip, I'm going to get out and his girlfriend is going to get in. I, of course, would give her my helmet and drink sodas for about 1.5. I inquired about the legality and was told this was the Guard. End of explanation. I then said, "I thought you were married." He replied in a disgusted manner "what the hell's that got to do with it?" I got out and she got in After 1.5 and no sign of my ride I thought he's pranged it and I'm going to be like that flight surgeon in Catch 22. They'll pry out two bodies, declare me both dead and a woman and I'll never straighten this out. Almost 2 hours later he comes roaring back, frantically waves me in after I get my helmet and we barely,I mean barely, make it back due to fuel concerns. After we shut down he told me I'd better lighten up if I was going to hack it in the Guard.
This happened in 1975 so any of you legal types can spare your observations.

Well hopefully you got the 1.5 in your logbook at least.

 

[BigIron]

...
We lost a crew of excellent men doing a stall in the 8, so you want to bring your a game on the post heavy maintenance flights.
Another Iphone post so deal with it.

Is that this flight?