Unbelievably Sad...

[picklesuit]

Maybe they were scared. Have you ever seen someone in an honest to God out of control violent rage? It is scary. It is hard to put your hands on someone already beyond reason and pain. But I suspect a couple of the nine had access to Flash's fantasy weapon, a crow bar or tire iron. And he is right, it probably would have worked. If you are afraid to go hands on then find a way to reach out and touch the bad guy. It isn't supposed to be a fair fight. Those that beat babies are supposed to lose. And the good guys that stop baby killers should not have to get injured doing the right thing.

I think the greater problem stems from an unwillingness of our society as a majority to intervene in conflict situations. How many times do we see people standing around either watching slackjawed (hit&run in Hartford, CT) or just filming with their damned cell-phones (teacher v. student fight)

More than once in FL I was the 5th or 6th car on an accident scene and the first to do something. I think people need to get beyond the idea that calling 911 absolves them of further responsibility.

We need to be teaching our children how to take action. Fvck the common man, he's too far gone already. My son will know to do something, anything, and damn the lawyers.

One last OCS DI quote and I am off my soapbox:

"Make a fvcking decision. Whether it is the right or the wrong decision, either is better than no decision at all"


edit: BTW I am not flaming wink, I just got worked up by the time I got to his post. Not his fault.

 

[skillz]

I think the greater problem stems from an unwillingness of our society as a majority to intervene in conflict situations. How many times do we see people standing around either watching slackjawed (hit&run in Hartford, CT) or just filming with their damned cell-phones (teacher v. student fight)

Well Put!!!

 

[TurnandBurn55]

Maybe they were scared. Have you ever seen someone in an honest to God out of control violent rage? It is scary.

No joke. When I was in flight school, some whack-job who was high on something started raising hell in our neighbor one Saturday morning. Dude goes to punch my neighbor. I thought big mistake, because my neighbor's about the size of a power forward... but he punches him back and the guy doesn't even flinch. He then runs off, jumps through a window, and no sh!t slices himself up, bleeding everywhere. Again, no effect at all, he just gets up and starts running around the house. The wife gets freaked and the man grabs a big Maglite, and starts hitting him as hard as he can right in the face, and he won't go down. Finally the cops come, tase him-- again, nothing. Tase him again and he finally collapses and dies on scene from massive cardiac arrest.

I'm with the guys who say you gotta have a gun and know how to use it if you want to get involved in something like this.

 

[Road Program]

As a member of the human race, and more pointedly an expectant father, this event makes me sick. You'd be surprised how much it happens, though. One of my wife's first paramedic calls was for a premie infant that was thrown into the toilet and left there for 45 minutes before medic got there. That baby fit in the palm of her hand.

And to think...some people think I'm crazy for owning firearms and actually carrying one.

 

[feddoc]

Yes, I think it is a great idea that we sit around and talk about how we could have come running to the rescue if only the bystanders were armed!

Shocking as it seems, a lot of people don't want to go around packing all of the time. So why don't you all quit fantasizing.

What about the tire iron scenario you mentioned....deadly weapon = deadly weapon. Or does it not?

 

[CWJones411]

What about the tire iron scenario you mentioned....deadly weapon = deadly weapon. Or does it not?

*Deadly weapon that puts you in harm's way.

 

[Sabre170]

I wish the man was not shot and killed. The story would have a happier ending if he were arrested and then locked up in a Max Security prison with the general population in a cell that had a faulty cell door that would not lock. Once the prisoners found out and tried to handle things on their own... the guards could intervene just in time to save his life, provide medical care and some time to heal, then put him back into the faulty cell... 20 years of beatings would not make up for what he did, but a quick death was to easy of a penalty.

 

[Flash]

What about the tire iron scenario you mentioned....deadly weapon = deadly weapon. Or does it not?

Yes, but it is much more likely to have one than the other, at least driving by a situation like that.

I think the greater problem stems from an unwillingness of our society as a majority to intervene in conflict situations. How many times do we see people standing around either watching slackjawed (hit&run in Hartford, CT)

I would like to give most people the benefit of the doubt. I think that disbelief and/or a failure to fully process what is going on that is a big part of it. I have seen some things that later I wonder why I did not react the way I thought I should have, but in others I react the way I would like to think I would. Sometimes the only thing I can chalk it up to is that sometimes I did not react because I did not 'believe' what was happening. "It was like I was watching TV" is the term I have heard, leaving people to react the way when they watch TV, just sitting back and watching.

For those who have been trained, it is much easier. The best example I can come up for both is when we pulled a guy having trouble out of the pool I worked at. All of the lifeguards jumped into action the moment we realized something was wrong, all of the patrons just stood and watched in disbelief both before and after the incident.

People ain't all that bad, and don't go thinking that you are better than them (I am not saying you do, just a caution) because you think you would do better. That will get you in trouble sooner or later.......

 

[Flash]

I wish the man was not shot and killed. The story would have a happier ending if he were arrested and then locked up in a Max Security prison with the general population in a cell that had a faulty cell door that would not lock. Once the prisoners found out and tried to handle things on their own....

Having never been to prison I can't say for sure, but I have heard many times that child abusers are the lowest of the low in prison. They often have to watch their rear......for their entire time in. Good.

 

[HeloBubba]

...I would of stepped in, gun or not. Have to in this situation. It said something like 9 folks didn't stop the guy, two were elderly, but what about the others??

Which was basically what I was getting at when I said "kept him busy". I don't drive around packing (anymore) and absent any other forethought, the sight of a guy beating up a kid I'd like to think would have put ME into a rage and I would have gone apeshit on HIM. Landing as many blows to the head or stomping him in the nuts as much as humanely possible.

 

[Fetus]

"Make a fvcking decision. Whether it is the right or the wrong decision, either is better than no decision at all"

In this situation, the above rings true. Well put. I'm confident everyone here would've done what was necessary to defend that child.

On a less important note: I don't like lawyers (especially "sea lawyers"), but I am a fan of informed decisions. It seems the California laws give more interpretation authority to the "reasonable man" in the jury while Texas laws list authorized situations for use of deadly force. My vote goes to laws (and lawmakers) who heed picklesuit's quote above.

(lots of caveats to this, if you want to read the whole thing, see the links)
Texas:http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm Chaper 9 Section C
-DEADLY[0] FORCE[0] IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
-DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON.
-DEADLY[0] FORCE[0] TO PROTECT PROPERTY.
-PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY.
California:http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf
-The question of whether use of a firearm is justified for self-defense cannot be reduced to a simple list of factors. This section is based on the instructions generally given to the jury in a criminal case where self-defense is claimed and illustrates the general rules regarding

use of firearms in self-defense....NOTE: The use of excessive force to counter an assault may result in civil or criminal
penalties.​

​

​

 

[nittany03]

-
The question of whether use of a firearm is justified for self-defense cannot be reduced to a simple list of factors. This section is based on the instructions generally given to the jury in a criminal case where self-defense is claimed and illustrates the general rules regarding use of firearms in self-defense....NOTE: The use of excessive force to counter an assault may result in civil or criminal penalties.

Sage wisdom. If you own a firearm, keep it for home defense, and have not educated yourself on the legal ramifications of using it, you are wrong. Trust me, it will scare the shit out of you. If you use it in any other situation than the imminent death, rape, or maiming of yourself or someone else, you have probably just pissed your life away. In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob is a good place to start.

 

[squorch2]

Last I heard, TASER has won every suit brought against it. Even so, I see cases where the TASER is not used according to TASER instructions and agency SOP. When that happens a very good weapon gets very bad press and threatens its use as a life saver.

They recently lost their first lawsuit.

 

[SDNalgene]

Yes, I think it is a great idea that we sit around and talk about how we could have come running to the rescue if only the bystanders were armed!

Shocking as it seems, a lot of people don't want to go around packing all of the time. So why don't you all quit fantasizing.

It's pretty tough to get a concealed weapons permit in California so those that do want to go around packing often cannot. Consequently legally armed citizens are few and far between (more so than in other states). I don't think that anyone was saying that people should be compelled to carry weapons. However, I don't think it's some fantasy to say that it is better policy to allow responsible, law abiding citizens who voluntarily have been trained, and have taken on the responsibility of exercising their constitutional right to bear arms to do so to the maximum extent possible. Really, what is the problem with that?

You are certainly correct that there is no way to know that had the concealed carry policies of California been less restrictive if any bystanders would have been armed or if they would have intervened even if they were armed. However, I think that you are way off base with your implication that we are fantasizing gun nuts for pointing out California's restrictive gun laws are contributing factors in the failure of people to act to prevent this tragedy and others like it. Last year in a Colorado church shooting one woman legally armed with a pistol neutralized an immediate threat to others and demonstrated the utility of our argument. How many unopposed shootings and random acts of violence are necessary to make us reconsider our restrictive policies on law abiding citizens' abilities to exercise their rights? I guess I am just fantasizing though.

As an aside, I pretty much am just fantasizing, because that security guard was a hot cougar. Makes me miss Pensacola.

 

[wink]

They recently lost their first lawsuit.

Don't know what training the officers got from TASER that was so inadequate that TASER be held liable. TASER factory training addresses multiple applications. Even so, many suspects have lived through multiple shots and several have died after a single shot. It has never before been found that a TASER caused the death of a suspect. Oh ya, one exception. TASER application after certain pepper spray use on a subject can cause the pepper spray to ignite, turning the suspect into a flaming alpha.