V-22 Osprey: Wonder Weapon or Widow Maker?

[JTS11]

The article talks about 800fpm in relation to Vortex Ring State, not max rate of descent for landing. I know for a Shitter, at least, if you landed at 800fpm, you could log multiple landings and the struts would be through your sponsons. (if we're light 672fpm is our max rod landing)

Let me preface this with, I am not an aerodynamics nerd or test pilot, but >800fpm rod and less than 40kts is what everyone is taught as parameters for Vortex Ring State. These numbers are pretty generic. The gouge I've heard is that the airspeed for VRS is 40kts b/c of unreliability of pitot static system below 40kts, and the 800fpm rod comes from tests done with Hueys a long time ago. I know for a fact that a 53 will not enter VRS at even close to these parameters, and I suspect the Osprey would not either.

The author makes a lot of assertions that don't quite add up. It sounds like there is definitely an agenda behind the article...

 

[Pags]

The author makes a lot of assertions that don't quite add up. It sounds like there is definitely an agenda behind the article...

Yeah, he plays the "change the units" game to make the descent sound slow to people who are unfamiliar with descent rates. from everyone's responses on here, 800fpm seems to be outside of a normal approach envelope for about every conventional helo in the fleet. which makes me raise the BS flag on his points.

 

[phrogdriver]

This guy seems to be obsessed with VRS, as if it was a new phenomena that the V-22 discovered a couple of years ago. He briefly touches on other topics, but he keeps pounding the VRS drum. He does the tricky "converting fpm to mph" math to try to make it sound as if this aircraft is creeping into an LZ. I suppose that if we were to park a V-22 at 1000' directly over a zone and descend vertically down, 800 fpm would seem slow. The V-22 is actually harder to get into VRS than conventional helos--the 800fpm gives A LOT of margin. It also has a rate of descent warning system to let you know when you're hitting the limit.

The author goes on to state that the rate of descent limits prevent aggressive manuevering to avoid threats in the zone. One, he's obviously not a pilot. Not a whole lot of radical jinking goes on during short final. The die is cast at that point--either you're landing or you're waving off. Regardless, he forgets that one can have his own opinion, but not his own facts. Considering that manuevering limits for the V-22 in nearly all regimes at a minumum exceed the CH-46's (I make this comparison because I was a phrog guy), I fail to see how he can reach this conclusion. Moreover, in the true test of manueverability--changing energy state--the V-22 blows any other rotorcraft away. This is where the picture of V-22s inching into the zone is destroyed by facts. We can be coming in at well over 200 knots to within a couple miles of the LZ, land (with a turn on final too, even, if you want), and transition back to APLN going over 200 again within a mile of the other side.

He dilutes his points by criticizing the APR-39 (V2), as if this is proprietary V-22 technology. Guess what--that's the standard the fleet is going to. Drop that complaint elsewhere. He further exposes his lack of flight experience by confusing IR and RF signatures in regard to the "stealth paint" and the disc reflectivity (guess those 51' rotors on the 46 were invisible to radar). He also misunderstands the use of a threat warning system, implying that a pilot would use it coming into a zone trying to correlate threats to a map. Crap. You need type and direction for avoidance, which is what the system gives.

As far as engine failures are concerned--the Osprey has an advantage a helo doesn't--it can transition and get wingborne lift. It can fly in APLN single-engine in most weights and conditions. Time means options--dump fuel, go to a runway, etc. Yeah, when you land you'll have about half the power you did before--well no sh!t, Sherlock, it's a 2-engine aircraft. This business about a regular helo storing energy for a SE landing is crap--he's confusing single-engine with autos.

Just some rants. These critics are like whack-a-moles. You keep pounding, they keep popping up. If it were up to these critics, we'd still ride to battle in massed formations on horseback--simple, reliable, not subject to vortex ring state.

 

[Rossi]

Just some rants. These critics are like whack-a-moles. You keep pounding, they keep popping up. If it were up to these critics, we'd still ride to battle in massed formations on horseback--simple, reliable, not subject to vortex ring state.

Best thing i've read all day, by far.

 

[wrk]

This guy seems to be obsessed with VRS...

You shuold take your whole post and turn it into a letter to the Gazette.

 

[phrogdriver]

You shuold take your whole post and turn it into a letter to the Gazette.

This month's issue actually had a pretty good article by Maj Jeff Hogan, another Osprey guy, disputing some of the negative mythology about the V-22.

The counterpoint article in that same issue was written by some poor captain who wrote a short paper for EWS that got misappropriated (student papers are automatically eligible for publication) and put in the Gazette. That guy got housed.

Why is it that I post on this and the debate stops? I enjoy reading idle, ill-informed opinions, then flaming the authors. It's been a while since some TBS student has decided that he should write the aviation campaign plan.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Why is it that I post on this and the debate stops? I enjoy reading idle, ill-informed opinions, then flaming the authors. It's been a while since some TBS student has decided that he should write the aviation campaign plan.

I'll debate you. You've gone to the dark side, and abandoned that beautiful, sexy beast called the Phrog.

 

[wrk]

This month's issue actually had a pretty good article by Maj Jeff Hogan, another Osprey guy, disputing some of the negative mythology about the V-22.

The counterpoint article in that same issue was written by some poor captain who wrote a short paper for EWS that got misappropriated (student papers are automatically eligible for publication) and put in the Gazette. That guy got housed.

Yeah, I was the one that mentioned the gazette articles in this thread. I just think it'd be nice to stick it to that Captain even more if there were more well-informed opinions to the contrary of his article. I wonder if the guys at the gazette were laughing as they made up this month's issue and knew that that Captain was going to look like a dolt.

 

[Recidivist]

Why is it that I post on this and the debate stops? I enjoy reading idle, ill-informed opinions, then flaming the authors. It's been a while since some TBS student has decided that he should write the aviation campaign plan.

I'm not a TBS student, but just to amuse you:
In Navy the world, the V-22 is perfectly suited for the VertRep mission: In fact, the aircraft's higher speed could theoretically allow ships to spread apart, creating a greater net. Imagine that the fleet would no longer be the fleet, but a widely dispersed, loosely associated grouping of ships and boats at the limits of the Osprey's range. :icon_wink

In the Marine environment the Osprey could be used as a quick-response airborne command center, allowing older, more frail officers the thrill of commanding the battle from the air. If properly implemented, the rapid response command center could do away with the need for officers on the ground alltogether.:icon_smil

Flame-on

 

[phrogdriver]

I'm not a TBS student, but just to amuse you:
In Navy the world, the V-22 is perfectly suited for the VertRep mission: In fact, the aircraft's higher speed could theoretically allow ships to spread apart, creating a greater net. Imagine that the fleet would no longer be the fleet, but a widely dispersed, loosely associated grouping of ships and boats at the limits of the Osprey's range. :icon_wink

In the Marine environment the Osprey could be used as a quick-response airborne command center, allowing older, more frail officers the thrill of commanding the battle from the air. If properly implemented, the rapid response command center could do away with the need for officers on the ground alltogether.:icon_smil

Flame-on

The Navy should buy the thing--long range SAR, ASW, COD, etc.

C2 platforms don't generally have to be fast--just within radio range--witness the mighty Huey.

You're just throwing up softballs

 

[Pags]

I'm not a TBS student, but just to amuse you:
In Navy the world, the V-22 is perfectly suited for the VertRep mission: In fact, the aircraft's higher speed could theoretically allow ships to spread apart, creating a greater net. Imagine that the fleet would no longer be the fleet, but a widely dispersed, loosely associated grouping of ships and boats at the limits of the Osprey's range. :icon_wink

Nope. You generally don't do vertrep over long distances. It's usually done when ships are in close proximity to each other for a RAS.

Now if you're talking about doing internal logistics, such as VOD/COD, then it might be better suited for something like that. But it would be relegated to the larger decks much like the MH-53E is now.

 

[wrk]

Here's another V-22 article I came across. Seems to be chocked full of the same errors.

http://www.g2mil.com/V-22videos.htm

 

[Lawman]

" This is the V-22's primary flaw. Anything that causes a rotor thrust imbalance dooms the aircraft. It may be software, pilot error, high winds, bird damage, enemy fire, wake from a nearby aircraft, payload imbalance, VRS, gearbox problem, rotor problem, or engine malfunction. The rotors must operate perfectly in sync or it rolls within a second. In contrast, a helo in trouble just plops down on its landing gear for a hard landing. "

So the Phrog operates by what??? Black Magic???


"There are no plans to deploy V-22s aboard ships because the US Navy has refused to certify it for shipboard operations. "

Guess all those photos of Ospreys on L-boats were just photoshops then right?

 

[Recidivist]

Sorry, I guess the internet smilies didn't exactly cover the idea I was trying to throw some stupid ideas out for Phrogdriver to burn up, as per his complaint.

Using my limited knowledge of Helo ops, I just picked the dumbed sounding ideas that came to mind and threw them out, with a little crappy rhetoric as seasoning.

 

[phrogdriver]

Smilies understood--but I thought you wanted some abuse!