For helo guys, NPC has an 'unofficial' but very real pecking order of 1st shore tour jobs. Admiral's aide is one of the few non-instructor jobs that is competitive - but obviously the risk/reward of that job depends entirely on which one you work for.
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Voluntary Termination
- Thread starter pdog79
- Start date
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
HSL is like this:
RAG IP
WWS Staff or some other SWTI job like fallon
VT IP
HT IP
C-12 *overseas C-12 is viewed like VT IP
Station SAR *60s is viewed better than H3 or H1
ROTC instructor is a hit/miss job. It goes from "very good if you get your Masters" to "you better be getting out" depending on who you ask.
RAG IP
WWS Staff or some other SWTI job like fallon
VT IP
HT IP
C-12 *overseas C-12 is viewed like VT IP
Station SAR *60s is viewed better than H3 or H1
ROTC instructor is a hit/miss job. It goes from "very good if you get your Masters" to "you better be getting out" depending on who you ask.
It also depends if he/she can get an interview/selection for the aide job too. I think it's one of the few jobs that you aren't just detailed to.
One caveat with that list (especially in regards to WTI): don't forget how as little as 5 years ago they were touting an OOD underway letter as essential to an aviator's career. Now it is barely a tie-breaker and JPME is the 'one thing'. Things can change between you taking orders and a board looking at your career. Also, HT's have been overtaking VT's (in the Navy's mind, if not in the minds of the guys looking for jobs).
BigIron is right, you have to be chosen by your community even to interview - it won't be an option for somebody not already on track for a competitive EP. FRS instructor is the one billet that has consistently stayed on top. We won't know for a couple of years how SWTI/WWS will play for helo types (especially for HSC, where half the community is relatively new to the whole SWTI thing).
BigIron is right, you have to be chosen by your community even to interview - it won't be an option for somebody not already on track for a competitive EP. FRS instructor is the one billet that has consistently stayed on top. We won't know for a couple of years how SWTI/WWS will play for helo types (especially for HSC, where half the community is relatively new to the whole SWTI thing).
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Bert, as recent as 4 months ago, I was told by my detailer and front office that HT is 2nd to VT in the "pecking order" not that far behind, but not #1 either.
Bert, you are right. I think a lot of folks are very anxious to see how this WTI thing will work out. Especially those in our community who have gone back to do it in lieu of a disassociated tour. It kind of amazes me (and it shouldn't at this point) that the big Navy is interested and promotes this ACTC thing, but when it comes down to putting the right guys in the right jobs (you obviously want decent players in the WTI slots) there's a caveat it might screw your career.
In the greater scheme of things I don't think the difference between them matters. One note is that it is generally viewed as being easier to break out in a VT because their retention is supposedly lower (I didn't do either, so I am just passing on an impression). A competitive EP in either will get you O-4 and a DH slot, so I don't think folks have to worry about the career ramifications of one vs. the other.
The reason I said that HT's seem to be passing VT's is based on how detailers were passing out the more competitive second sea tour slots. If you can make it to millington, the sea detailer had a pecking order written on his white board (or at least did in Oct when I stopped by to talk to him about one of my guys). It could be that he and the shore detailer aren't looking from the same perspective: I suspect the shore guy gets more requests/slot for VT's than HT's.
The reason I said that HT's seem to be passing VT's is based on how detailers were passing out the more competitive second sea tour slots. If you can make it to millington, the sea detailer had a pecking order written on his white board (or at least did in Oct when I stopped by to talk to him about one of my guys). It could be that he and the shore detailer aren't looking from the same perspective: I suspect the shore guy gets more requests/slot for VT's than HT's.
I bet your impression is correct. When I was Ops O in a VT (A4) squadron, we fought four items in the retention battle:
1. Our JO instructors were collecting about 400-500 hours per year (good for the airline interview)
2. There was lots of airline gouge, and almost all our SELRES instructors were airline guys
3. Our JO's saw, via our reservists, that they could fly the big iron and still fly a Navy airplane four days a month (our active duty guys quickly figured out that, by regulation, our SELRES were required to be given priority on flights since they only had so many days available)
4. Our JO's felt that a VT wasn't as competitive in the near term as those going to a FRS
As a result, our first tour retention was barely 10%. Of course, that was in the late '80's and early '90's, but I bet the same issues remain year over year.
The FRS has always been a top spot for your top EP players. Of course I did an FRS IP tour so they've obviously lowered the bar
The JOIC or overseas thing is new, maybe the norm now but not in the past. A flying tour, at least VT (station pilot or the like isn't good) isn't going to hurt as long as one comes out competitive. Two of my last 4 VRC skippers were VT IP's (VT-4 and VT-3). The VRC-40 Skipper 2 years ago was a VT guy as well. Last skipper was a joint guy with war college and a joint tour. Current CO is an FRS, former CAG and AIRPAC paddles. Current XO is a former FRS/war college/joint guy. The wave of the future is set, joint. For paddles, going VT (preferably FRS)and getting your training qual then going to a CAG paddles tour is another excellent way to go for the boat players.One thing I don't like with all this joint stuff coming into play is the experience level of the front office. I think the CO/XO should be the most experienced aviators out there with the flight time to back it up. My first CO back in 98 had 4000+ hours, his XO then Skipper hit 4000 hours as CO. His XO, then CO, had over 5000 flight hours. His XO, over 3500 flight hours. My last skipper, the joint type, had 2400 hours total I think. At least 3 O-4 types who went the VT route had more hours. I think the XO now, another joint type, has around the same. The current VRC-30 CO has over 3500 flight hours but is one of the last to have stayed in the cockpit for most of his career, being a paddles has kept him flying to at least one degree or another.
All good info. For HSL, the last command board was the real first WTI look, and there were several that either didn't make operational command or command at all. It will be interesting to see what happens on this board.
VTs vs HTs? Honestly, if someone is that worried about their career that they're trying to figure out which is "better," then they probably have other career related issues they need to worry about. It's non-RAG production. As others have said, get a competitive EP out of it, and you're doing alright.
Bunk:
We're going in circles here w/ the other thread, but the RAG really is dependent on community and timing for some. I know of a couple of #1 or #2 guys that didn't go to the RAG because they either didn't want it or didn't have the spots. Meanwhile, a couple of #4 or so guys got it, mostly due to timing.
It isn't only timing, they don't send only #1/#2 guys to the FRS because they don't want Blue on Blue with their community players. Of course, the fact that they are picking so many of their future CO's after only one tour is a whole different argument.
And I thought the Marine Corps had career-jockeying issues...
Only a few of the HS guys are making the transition right now -- 2-3 per FRS. It can be pretty competitive to get in there -- but it can also be a timing issue. Some HS types don't want to make the transition-- fear of having to deal with a different community. However, I suspect that will change in the next couple of years, as the HS squadrons start to transition. HS guys still have to fill HS-10 and the other traditional billets (Weps School, NSAWC, VX-1), so only a few have gone over.