What is it like to be an NFO?

[HAL Pilot]

Why some of the senior NFO leadership chooses to appear so offended by what was obviously a mis-understanding and mis-assignment of terms (aviator, passenger, etc. warranting a correction surely) is what confuses me.

If anything, it looks (to the youngsters) like an inferiority complex, snap-reaction, which I know, isn't the case.

Just my perspective...

It's not an inferiority complex, it's the repeated misrepresentation of what an NFO is/does by those who have never been to the fleet or worked with them.

For example. IRfly has no wings next to his name and his profile contains no information. Who is he? Is he a NA, SNA, NFO, SNFO, Naval Officer or Marine? From the information available, he is just another "no one" spouting off that NFO are pax without anything to show he has any knowledge to back that comment up. And if he is a SNA or NA - has he ever flown with a NFO?

You will notice that some of the biggest defenders of NFOs are pilots who fly or have flown with NFOs.

Too many people think they have the knowledge to answer questions about things they have never been or in areas they have no experience.

 

[eddie]

For your information, it has taken me years of work to make my inferiority as complex as it is.

Clever.

I do not believe any of the NFOs here have an inferiority complex, and I have never gotten the impression that the community as a whole would or does exhibit one. My bad on the poor phrasing.

BUT

When I first posted, I believed that the reactionary reponse might give such an impression. Having re-read the whole thing, I think I was making far too big a deal of my impressions.

 

[wink]

If you are considering going into Naval aviation, and someone tells you that NFOs "fly the plane," or "are just like pilots," you are getting bad gouge.

I don't want to over analyze your statement or be a jerk, but I believe you are still not representing NFO as a career choice or lifestyle properly. Of course NFOs don't "fly the plane", as in pilot it or drive it around the sky. NFOs do fly (in every other sense except piloting) however. They go to flight school, and if you get to the RAG and are lucky enough to fly an aircraft with NFOs, you will find out they learn all the same stuff in ground school and the classroom as pilots. I had to pass the same NATOPS test as the pilots plus the NFO NATOPS test. I went to the same annual instrument flight class and had to know all the same stuff as pilots wrt to instrument flight. NFOs learn all the proper flight control inputs and movements to recover from spins, post stall gyrations, engine failures, etc. I believe that, and more qualifies NFOs as as airmen, aviators (slight license there though completely acceptable by Navy tradition), fliers, Airedales, or whatever. Pilots they are not. To put an even finer point on it wrt to lifestyle and career, yes NFOs are "just like pilots" in every way.

 

[IRfly]

Alright...Fair enough. I meant more from a purely operational standpoint.

One last thing before I check out. One of the main points I had wanted to make for the original questioner (before the firestorm) is that one of the good things about the NFO community is the variety. Wink, Flash, and Brett are all NFOs but have been on different platforms (P-3, EP-3, and EA-6B respectively) in which their jobs have greatly differed. So, when you sign up to be a pilot, you know that you'll be flying an aircraft down the road somewhere. When you sign up to be an NFO, you know that you'll be in an aircraft, but not until halfway through the training pipeline do you get a better idea of which aircraft and what that role will be. <shrug> Can't speak for anyone else, but I like that.

Once again, my apologies to the NFOs on the board who took offense, especially to those who landed their planes when the pilot was taking a nap.

 

[Brett327]

So, when you sign up to be a pilot, you know that you'll be flying an aircraft down the road somewhere. When you sign up to be an NFO, you know that you'll be in an aircraft, but not until halfway through the training pipeline do you get a better idea of which aircraft and what that role will be.

Not to prolong the agony here, but how are Pilots and NFOs different in this respect? Both go through a series of selections as they move through training, and neither knows what platform they'll get until they're almost done. I don't get the distinction.

Brett

 

[Kickflip89]

Thanks for the replies guys. Based on some of the NFO personalities I've encountered on this board, I don't think the "will my work be important" thing is an issue . I think being an NFO in any platform would be pretty cool, but I think that's a good point about NOT trying for pilot and always wondering.

Honestly, I just want to fly. Being a pilot would be cool, but I honestly wonder if I wouldn't be more suited to NFO. At any rate, you've certainly made me realize that as far as the fleet goes, NFO and pilot are both pretty awesome jobs.

I guess the reason I didn't want to apply for SNA just to get NAMI-WHAMMIED is that I've heard they send you home and you have to re-apply for NFO. If they allow you to re-designate and still go through OCS, then I may just go ahead and put pilot first choice to see if I could get it.

 

[Flash]

Wink, Flash, and Brett are all NFOs but have been on different platforms (P-3, EP-3, and EA-6B respectively)

Hey, dont' forget I flew EA-6B's too, though I am sure Brett would love for you to forget.......

Plus, I didn't take the picture on the left in an EP-3.......

 

[Brett327]

Hey, dont' forget I flew EA-6B's too, though I am sure Brett would love for you to forget.......

Plus, I didn't take the picture on the left in an EP-3.......

Screw the rest of them, Brett would love for Brett to forget.

Brett

 

[wink]

Not to prolong the agony here, but how are Pilots and NFOs different in this respect? Both go through a series of selections as they move through training, and neither knows what platform they'll get until they're almost done. I don't get the distinction.

Brett

Perhaps as in a pilot is a pilot. Always the stick monkey. Flying one plane is pretty much like flying another. Whereas a NFO won't know precisely what he will do, the central part of his aeronautical responsibilities, until he knows the exact aircraft he will fly. That is what determines the mission and therefore the true nature of the NFOs work.

 

[A4sForever]

.... Always the stick monkey. Flying one plane is pretty much like flying another. .....

Ahhhhhh .... yes ... true, so true.

 

[wink]

Ahhhhhh .... yes ... true, so true.

This man suffers no inferiority complex!! He!! he was always meant for the whale. Don't know how they got him stuffed into the scooter.

 

[megan620]

I guess the reason I didn't want to apply for SNA just to get NAMI-WHAMMIED is that I've heard they send you home and you have to re-apply for NFO. If they allow you to re-designate and still go through OCS, then I may just go ahead and put pilot first choice to see if I could get it.

Based on my husband's personal experience. If you get "NAMI-WHAMMIED" for SNA, if you qualified for SNFO AND there is a slot for SNFO open while you are in OCS, you MAY be able to get your billet changed. (That is what happened to my husband...although he didnt find out if there was a SNFO slot available until he was in the candi-O phase of OCS....so he stayed in OCS for several weeks not sure if he had a billet or not. It worked out, he's now an EA-6B ECMO!) But, just because it worked for one person DOES NOT guarantee that it would work for you.

Good luck!

 

[sludge31]

If you just want to fly, then I don't think that you could make a bad choice. I was kind of bummed when I found out that I was not PQ for pilot, but I got over it real quick. In my opinion, you might need to consider what type of mission you want to be a part of. Statisticaly speaking, if you want to be a part of the Strike Fighter community or just want to fly Rhinos, then you probrably have a better chance as an SNFO. Keep in mind that the Growler will be coming online relatively soon. Heck, every SNFO that goes to VT-86 does air intercepts as of last July.
I would venture to guess that close to 50% of SNFOs in my time frame went through Strike/Strike Fighter training at 86. I only know one guy who went to VAW-120 (E2s) that didn't want to go. Panel Nav slots are still competitive also.
Speaking of training at the RAG, us NFO/RWSO types are expected to know just as much about the aircraft and mission as the Pilots. We attend all of the same classes, do all of the same computer training, and crew with the replacement pilots in the sim and for a handful of flights. You will study together alot and party together when you get the chance. At this point, pilots are just doing enough Fam hops to get comfortable in the jet, learn checklists and get a feel for how the jet will perform and what it is capable of. We actually have a bit of an upper hand tactically because we have been exposed to A/G and A/A RADAR, fighter intercepts and self escort strike. Although, they have more ACM/BFM experience than we do. We also had to learn 4 different airframes over a year and a half period. You begin to understand systems relatively quickly. I got my fair share of time on the controls in 3 of the 4 aircraft (No time in the T1. Damn Air Force jet!). It was enough to satisfy me, keeping in mind that I had no prior flight experience.
As previously mentioned, as WSOs, we are heavily involved in flight planning and weaponeering. Career opportunities (in the Navy) are just as available to NFOs as Pilots. NFOs can go to Weapons School, Fighter Weapons School, Test Pilot School, etc. A big advantage we have is, being in a multiple seat aircraft, we have more Officers to spread the ground jobs out. Single seat guys tend to be busier with multiple ground jobs.
As for second class citizens, a CONE is a CONE (Category One Student. i.e. FNG) It doesn't matter how many anchors you have. I asked a Tomcat driver, who was transitioning to single seat Hornets, what he liked most about having a RIO. His reply, "Having One". I think that says alot.
Sorry if I have rambled on. Just want to give you all the info possible. God knows I didn't know a darn thing about what I was getting myself into 2.5 years ago.

 

[East]

I don't believe it is still automatic, but very common at least.


About this NFO as passenger/near aviator/non flying officer. IRfly has fine tuned his statement, but there is more to consider. In some missions on some aircraft the NFO certainly has down time in between, or in transit to/from station. All that time the pilot is indeed "flying" the aircraft. But if that means the NFO is just a passenger then does it follow that the copilot or 3p is just a passenger? How about the flight engineer? None of them are passengers. They are trained airmen/aviators (note the samll case A) assigned to a crew. If the sh!t hits the fan the 3p and FE will be on the flight deck asap making valuable contributiions, likewise, the NFOs in the crew will be up on ICS at their stations and in the check list. I agree with the above comments. The minute a NFO starts to consider himself a passenger he is putting the rest of the crew at risk.

Only real difference in ground jobs and additional responsiblities between pilots and NFOs is that only pilots are LSOs and the NFOs usually spend more time in mission/strike plannning and weaponeering.

Thanx Wink, non-FE platform pilots will never know how it is to fly with a real FE who knows his aircraft and systems by heart. P-3 FEs (used to)come from the maintainer pipelines, which means that they worked on the platform between 9-12 years.

Bottomline: we work as a CREW for better outcome. That goes for everyone as aircrew, Pilot/NFO/Flight Engineers and Crewchiefs for Helo's.

Any Helodriver out here to tell something about the importance of their Crewchief(s)?

 

[MasterBates]

In all honesty, out side of the Guns and Accoustic/FLIR systems, a lot of out AW's don't know jack about the helo. When they stopped making AW's become Plane Captains, I saw the non-AW-specific knoweldge about the Aircraft drop waaaaay down.