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"You wanted open war. We are going to open war,"

pennst8

Next guy to ask about thumbdrives gets shot.
Contributor
Is a coherent Arab government possible? My (uneducated) take on it was that there are lots of tribes and factions throughout the region and not much unity, even within nations such as Iraq. If that's true it would seem to be a difficult thing to execute.

Some guy in the British foriegn ministry draws a line in a sand. *BAM!* new country. Forget about tribal, ethnic, and religious differences.

And the answer (uneducated, angry, and buzzed) is no. They can't have a coherent government because the thugs running the game don't want one and the people are too immature and brainwashed to force it.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I believe around 60 in the F-15 and 40+ in the F-16. Read a goog book years ago on the Israeli AF. There was a fight in which an F-15 was hit by AAA on the way in to intercept some Mig-21's. In the engagement he is hit by an Atoll as well, shoots down a Mig, returns to base single engine with several hundred small holes in his fuselage. If ture, a good story. Good story if not true as well.


Open source claims of all types are 63 for F-15A/C/D and 43 for F-16A model aircraft. Most of their peak activity was in the 80s. USAF F-15 and F-16 have more success in timeframe since 1991.
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
This is a completely irrational thought on my part, but things have been at such an impasse over there for so long that sometimes I think the pot needs to be thoroughly stirred up. Bunk is right, every time the region has gone hot, the Arabs have come away with the short end of the stick. Maybe Israel should finish the job this time.

Brett


I tend to agree. Initially, I thought Israel may have overreacted. And I was disappointed we weren't jumping in to facilitate a cease-fire. Now, I wonder if our strategy is perhaps to let this play out. . . within reason.

The possible elimination, or serious reduction to Hezbollah from the equation is an objective that would privately please – besides us - some other key nations in the area and world. Maybe it is a time that has come, after years of festering, and will play out under long-planned and loosely "controlled" circumstances. BWTFDIK
 

PropStop

Kool-Aid free since 2001.
pilot
Contributor
Talk about a bad dog to pick a fight with. I mean, GEEZE guys, when has Israel ever gotten it's ass kicked? Oh yeah, never.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Drunken hypothetical:

We initiate regime change in Iran, using nukes if necessary and assert control over their oil production - basically back to the pre-Mossadegh days where BP ran the Persian oil fields. This essentially halts financial and logistic flows into Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and everywhere else where radicalism has been perpetuated by Iran since 1979. Besides the obvious issues with reaction from the international community, what would the world look like after that - goods/bads/others? How would taking that admittedly huge step affect the position of North Korea/Russia/China/Etc?

Food for thought.

Brett
 

ChunksJR

Retired.
pilot
Contributor
We initiate regime change in Iran, using nukes if necessary and assert control over their oil production

Change Iran to Mexico...and I think you're onto something feasible. One word that will prevent us from ever doing this in Iran:Logistics. Cut off supply of oxygen to the head and the entity dies...so goes it in the logistix world. Mexico on the other hand...

~D
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Then I want to fly ship 695 (above). It appears to fly better than the rest of 'em .... :)

Or 646 (obviously not shown):

7-Jun-82 133 Sqn F-15A 646 MiG-23 Syrian
9-Jun-82 133 Sqn F-15A 646 MiG-23MF Syrian
9-Jun-82 133 Sqn F-15A 646 MiG-21MF Syrian
9-Jun-82 133 Sqn F-15A 646 MiG-21MF Syrian
11-Jun-82 133 Sqn F-15A 646 MiG-21 Syrian

Pretty good for a 4 day period
 

Huggy Bear

Registered User
pilot
I was lucky enough to do a det to israel 5 years ago this month. Some of the best SES training I've ever had. Fight through vipers, turn around fight through more vipers, get lit up from the ground, bomb a target, and then jumped by eagles from 40k+ off target, all the while trying not to sneeze and go in the "wrong" airspace. I was just a nugget hanging on for dear life at the time. I would love to go back and do it again now.

We had a sit-down-drink-beer-and-share stories night with the IAF. They showed us a greatest hits compilation of kills by their viper pilots from 82. Amazingly (and there seemed to be more than the 40 kills mentioned above), almost all of their kills were below 5000', mostly with sidewinder, but quite a few with the gun. I took away a big lesson from that- since we don't train enough for low fights.

One of their old timer viper pilots spoke of his experiences from the 82 war. He was a colonel, but was only a brand new lieutenant during the war. The guy scored 5 kills, and he was a wingman dash -4 on just about every mission. Two of his stories stand out in my memory. The first was a mission where he was already down low and spotted some syrians even lower. He called out the tallies to his flight and then swooped in on them. He had a couple of quick kills, but found himself all alone. Nobody else in his flight had heard him or followed. The other memorable mission was when they spotted a helo and tried to bring it down. His 4-plane set up a circle-the-wagons on this helo trying to get a tone rise or hit it with the gun. After 3-4 passes each without success he was finally the one to get tone and bring down the helo. His stories made a big impression on me - all the more so since I was a nugget myself at the time.

When it was our turn to speak, we had a few desert storm vets, but not nearly as much to show off. One of the israelis put one of our O-4s on the spot by asking him what is our motivation to fight. Fair enough question. But the obvious underlying implication was that we americans are little better than mercenaries since our country was in no obvious danger. Our LCDR gave a diplomatic, but boring answer in reply. I couldn't think of anything better at the time to say. This was pre 9/11 mind you. A couple of months later, after 9/11, when we found ourselves off the coast of pakistan, I guess we had our answer for the smug israeli.
 

taliwho83

Registered User
Its not that the people are uneducated, most of the adults are, they are very well educated. The problem is that there are no jobs. The PLO is more worried about maintaing power and doesnt focus on providing neseccary infrastructure to create jobs.

I think it is very instresting that Al' Quada is at least for now staying out of this. thats one thing i never understood, their biggest beef and most of the middle east be it muslim or christian, yes christian in the middle east dont like jews too. is israils occupation of palistine. So why not attack them rathur than attack the US a bigger stronger enemy
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Its not that people are uneducated, most ... adults are, they are very well educated..... doesnt .... neseccary.... thats .... i never understood, their biggest beef and most of the middle east be it muslim or christian, yes christian in the middle east dont like jews too. is israils occupation of palistine. So why not attack them rathur than attack the US a bigger stronger enemy

Irony ??? ..... :) ..... I weep for the future of Naval Aviation ...

 
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