"You wanted open war. We are going to open war,"

[HH-60H]

One of the israelis put one of our O-4s on the spot by asking him what is our motivation to fight. Fair enough question. But the obvious underlying implication was that we americans are little better than mercenaries since our country was in no obvious danger.

Wow, that is awfully arrogant for someone flying American F-16's.

 

[DocT]

Hamas was elected. The people want...the people get. This isn't going to go away. Am I just pessimistic?

 

[BrandonJ1780]

Sidenote: If you want to read a bit about the IAF, check out "Raid on the Sun: Inside Israel's Secret Campaign that Denied Saddam the Bomb" by Rodger Claire (I posted this awhile back in a different topic, but figure it could be pretty timely--maybe with a country of the same first three letters, I-R-A-__-- if things kick up a notch). Best wishes all, enjoy the weekend.

 

[zippy]

Sidenote: If you want to read a bit about the IAF, check out "Raid on the Sun: Inside Israel's Secret Campaign that Denied Saddam the Bomb" by Rodger Claire (I posted this awhile back in a different topic, but figure it could be pretty timely--maybe with a country of the same first three letters, I-R-A-__-- if things kick up a notch). Best wishes all, enjoy the weekend.

I think i finished that book in two days... great book.

 

[DocT]

From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman is another great book on the troubles in that area. I think it's even on the Commandant's reading list.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman is another great book on the troubles in that area. I think it's even on the Commandant's reading list.

I was just about to say... if you haven't read that... do.

Anyone wondering last time Israel got their a$$ kicked? Look back to their original foray into Lebanon... pretty sobering experience for the Israelis. I wonder if Sharon was still in charge if he wouldn't have been a little hesitant to relive his Oranim '82 experience

 

[HeyJoe]

Were they not on the verge of total destuction until the US bailed them out back in the 70's?

That would be the Yom Kippur War in 1973 in which the Egyptians totally totally caught the Israelis off guard by massing the requisite forces up to the Suez and crossing it rapidly. They also had some nasty surprises for the Israeli Air Force with the relatively unknown SA-3 and SA-6 Surface-to-Air missiles and liberal doses of SA-7 Strela MANPADS supplied by the Soviet Union along with Sagger anti-tank missiles that were a total surprise. The Israelis were knocked off guard and suffered considerable losses while several Egyptian division raced across the desert. Meanwhile, the Syrians nearly took the Golan Heights and only hesitency by a Syrian general kept them from exploiting their initial advances fully before the israelis could mobilize their reserves and begin pushing back.

The Israelis ultimately turned the tables on the Egyptians by executing a daring reverse crossing of the Suez Canal and expansion of their bridgehead to cut off the Egyptian divisions. The Syrians were eventually repulsed as well with hotly contested tank vs tank combat once the effect of the Strela wire-guided missiles was recognized and tactics devised to neutralize them.

In the end, a brilliantly fought Israeli offensive on the heels of a bitterly contested defensive action on two fronts while the reserves where mobilized and put into action.

And yes, the US maintained an air bridge bringing supplies and even tanks to Israel including replacement aircraft like A4s beloved Mongoose (Topgun gave up theirs).

 

[A4sForever]

That would be the Yom Kippur War in 1973 ....The Israelis ultimately turned the tables on the Egyptians ...and ....Syrians ....In the end, a brilliantly fought Israeli offensive on the heels of a bitterly contested defensive action on two fronts while the reserves where mobilized and put into action.

And yes, the US maintained an air bridge bringing supplies and even tanks to Israel including replacement aircraft like A4s beloved Mongoose (Topgun gave up theirs).

All true ... and in addition to the air resupply dubbed "Operation Nickel Grass" ..... which argueably "saved" Israel ...

Photos: Self-propelled artillery and M-60 Patton tank off-loaded from a C-5 at Lod and Ben-Gurion Airports during Operation Nickel Grass

... and "we covered" their back by kicking it up to DEFCON 3 during the Yom Kippur War when the Soviets were discovered moving tactical nukes and paratroopers into Egypt.

The Jews did a masterful infiltation of the Egyptian line in and around Bitter Lake and "Chinese Farm" -- led by Ariel Sharon's division --- and ended up crossing the Suez, thus cutting off the Egyptian armies in the Sinai. Cairo was only @ 50 miles to the west --- a pleasant afternoon drive for the Israeli armored forces ---which brought about the Russian panic moves to save their client state.

I believe the only time we've ever been to DEFCON 2 was during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962.

 

[MasterBates]

As much as I do not want Genocide, and the Israelis probably oppose it due to not-too-distant history, this has the potential to get real ugly.

Israel is like a cornered dog. In the olden days they have fled(or been forcibly moved), but I do not see that happenign. Small events, like a bombing, the dog growls. Kidnap soldier, dog snaps. Maybe draws a little blood.

In the past, the dog when pushed hard enogh grabbed hold, chewed them up a bit and went back. Sometimes with a bit of breathing room (Golan, Gaza, West Bank).

If they kick the dog, or worse, (think WMD of one form or another) the dog will go for the throat. Maybe they kill the dog. Maybe not. Either way, it will not be pretty.

If the terrorist use nukes, god help them. Because I think Israel will. Not as a preemptive (they will conventionally strike first, like Osirak) but as a last ditch effort.

 

[A4sForever]

(posted on another thread as assist)

Suggested reading source from the "heartland" for those of you following the events --- and who isn't ???

Touch this: http://www.jpost.com/

 

[JIMMY]

Drunken hypothetical:

We initiate regime change in Iran, using nukes if necessary and assert control over their oil production - basically back to the pre-Mossadegh days where BP ran the Persian oil fields. This essentially halts financial and logistic flows into Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and everywhere else where radicalism has been perpetuated by Iran since 1979. Besides the obvious issues with reaction from the international community, what would the world look like after that - goods/bads/others? How would taking that admittedly huge step affect the position of North Korea/Russia/China/Etc?

Food for thought.

Brett

Brett,

that is by far the most coherent and clearly worded paragraph i have ever read, of which was written by an intoxicated being... (of course im talking about the structure and grammar, not necessarly the content ).

-jP

 

[JIMMY]

I was lucky enough to do a det to israel 5 years ago this month. Some of the best SES training I've ever had. Fight through vipers, turn around fight through more vipers, get lit up from the ground, bomb a target, and then jumped by eagles from 40k+ off target, all the while trying not to sneeze and go in the "wrong" airspace. I was just a nugget hanging on for dear life at the time. I would love to go back and do it again now.

We had a sit-down-drink-beer-and-share stories night with the IAF. They showed us a greatest hits compilation of kills by their viper pilots from 82. Amazingly (and there seemed to be more than the 40 kills mentioned above), almost all of their kills were below 5000', mostly with sidewinder, but quite a few with the gun. I took away a big lesson from that- since we don't train enough for low fights.

One of their old timer viper pilots spoke of his experiences from the 82 war. He was a colonel, but was only a brand new lieutenant during the war. The guy scored 5 kills, and he was a wingman dash -4 on just about every mission. Two of his stories stand out in my memory. The first was a mission where he was already down low and spotted some syrians even lower. He called out the tallies to his flight and then swooped in on them. He had a couple of quick kills, but found himself all alone. Nobody else in his flight had heard him or followed. The other memorable mission was when they spotted a helo and tried to bring it down. His 4-plane set up a circle-the-wagons on this helo trying to get a tone rise or hit it with the gun. After 3-4 passes each without success he was finally the one to get tone and bring down the helo. His stories made a big impression on me - all the more so since I was a nugget myself at the time.

When it was our turn to speak, we had a few desert storm vets, but not nearly as much to show off. One of the israelis put one of our O-4s on the spot by asking him what is our motivation to fight. Fair enough question. But the obvious underlying implication was that we americans are little better than mercenaries since our country was in no obvious danger. Our LCDR gave a diplomatic, but boring answer in reply. I couldn't think of anything better at the time to say. This was pre 9/11 mind you. A couple of months later, after 9/11, when we found ourselves off the coast of pakistan, I guess we had our answer for the smug israeli.

thx for sharing.

-jP

 

[jarhead]

That would be the Yom Kippur War in 1973 in which the Egyptians totally totally caught the Israelis off guard by massing the requisite forces up to the Suez and crossing it rapidly. They also had some nasty surprises for the Israeli Air Force with the relatively unknown SA-3 and SA-6 Surface-to-Air missiles by the Soviet Union along and liberal doses of SA-7 Strela MANPADS supplied by the Soviet Union along with Sagger anti-tank missiles that were a total surprise. The Israelis were knocked off guard and suffered considerable losses while several Egyptian division raced across the desert. Meanwhile, the Syrians nearly took the Golan Heights and only hesitency by a Syrian general kept them from exploiting their initial advances fully before the israelis could mobilize their reserves and begin pushing back.

The Israelis ultimately turned the tables on the Egyptians by executing a daring reverse crossing of the Suez Canal and expansion of their bridgehead to cut off the Egyptian divisions. The Syrians were eventually repulsed as well with hotly contested tank vs tank combat once the effect of the Strela wire-guided missiles was recognized and tactics devised to neutralize them.

In the end, a brilliantly fought Israeli offensive on the heels of a bitterly contested defensive action on two fronts while the reserves where mobilized and put into action.

And yes, the US maintained an air bridge bringing supplies and even tanks to Israel including replacement aircraft like A4s beloved Mongoose (Topgun gave up theirs).

heyjoe, wasn't it the Sagger wire-guided anti-tank missile and not Strela, which is associated with Russian manpads?

my 2¢ on the topic ... what else should we expect when you try to plant a Christian land in the middle of a bunch of Muslims? those people have been fighting Christians for thousands of years and it's not going to stop. they are too stupid to be civilized.

s/f

 

[pennst8]

what else should we expect when you try to plant a Christian land in the middle of a bunch of Muslims?

Psssst... they're JEWISH.

 

[jarhead]

Psssst... they're JEWISH.

"what else should we expect when you try to plant a Jewish land in the middle of a bunch of Muslims?"