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All things MV-22 Osprey

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
And you'd have to send the COD pilots to Helo training as well.. Which would make the pipeline ungodly long.

Plus, I don't wanna fly the devils whirlybird. It looks even funnier than the COD.
 

VetteMuscle427

is out to lunch.
None
And you'd have to send the COD pilots to Helo training as well.. Which would make the pipeline ungodly long.

Plus, I don't wanna fly the devils whirlybird. It looks even funnier than the COD.

But if they are flying 22s, they wouldn't have to CQ... so couldn't it shorten the pipeline?

Besides, what are you worrying about? You're going to be flying Hawkeyes.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
And you'd have to send the COD pilots to Helo training as well.. Which would make the pipeline ungodly long.

I don't think it'd be any longer than the C2 pipeline, as the current Osprey studs don't go to K-rock, they just do multi and helo, and the helo pipeline for them is really friggin short.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Can't talk to the flight deck mods, but the V-22 can't land in an airplane mode (well, I mean it can - but it's staying there for a while, and the deck is fouled after that), so it would be like launching/recovering a helo vice a F/W asset.

We do 75-deg to 85 deg nacelle run-on landings all the time. We wouldn't hook, but the deckhandling would look a lot more like f/w if that was desired.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Just sayin'...the VOD '53's have gone away, the CODs are getting long in the tooth already, and the C-2B hasn't got much beyond the Artist's Concept stage (far as I know). There's no perfect answer, but seems like the V-22 would at least be worth a try.
 

raptor10

Philosoraptor
Contributor
Osprey as COD, good discussion a while back:

Allow me to chime in with a few points here and there.
C-2B (by Northrop Grumman): I'm not entirely sure that the company even has the right tools to be able to build it. I'm sure there are a lot of old C-2A tools in some shed somewhere, but we're currently having issues with the C-2A that are difficult to solve because of the era in which it was designed. A lot of the engineers now scratch their heads when they see something that just "doesn't make sense" and yet has worked for 4 decades now. Making a C-2B would be a new aircraft moreso than simply a follow-on to the original or reprocured ones. As Hoover(COD)pilot mentioned, the current platform just isn't very capable. We have 1 main mission, and at best a couple side-missions (paradrops for one). We need an aircraft that can deliver cargo to the ship, carry SEALs many miles into bad-guy territory, and of course give/take fuel. It's pretty much been the trend of the military... do more with less. Unfortunately we're quite limited with the "more" part right now.

Why the V-22 will not work: There are design and operational limitations to the aircraft that just don't allow it to fit in the traditional COD role. Kiss fixed-wing ops at the ship goodbye. Instead, imagine doing "helo breaks" that last over an hour (for the offload and loading of cargo). It would be like when the -53s come aboard during the wee hours. Second, without pressurization we'd be limited on how far we could travel with pax, at least with one bag of gas. The ceiling automatically becomes 10,000' unless you figure out a way to get the passengers to all have oxygen (comfortably). Third, the internal volume is smaller. It is very rare that a C-2 reaches its weight limit compared to reaching the max volume on the inside of the airframe. Simply loading and unloading while aboard the ship would mean less goods coming to and fro per mission. As I mentioned before, the V-22 just can't fulfil the C-2 role as we know it.

Why the V-22 will work: The biggest challenge is to overcome the mentality of "that's how we do business." The V-22 is more capable, but with different capabilities. The flying into bad-guy territory with SEALs can be covered by this airframe. Being able to take fuel is covered, which means 10,000' really doesn't limit range as long as you have a tanker. The challenge now is to figure out how you're going to move cargo on and off the ship. Although it won't work for fixed-wing ops, the V-22 can land on other platforms (small boys, oil rigs) and transfer cargo that way. Helos can then take the smaller cargo back and forth as needed. If big items need to come to the ship, then they would come just like they do with helos now... VERTREP. Even though the internal cubic space is less, the weight allowance is greater. And the V-22 is not confined to carry stuff on the inside. It can actually carry more items than a C-2 if you were to simply take it underneath.

Challenges ahead: Again, the biggest idea to overcome is the "inside the box" for what the purpose of the aircraft is. This means changes to how dets are organized, the missions that are given (cargo vs spec ops vs ???), and who actually owns the asset (airwing vs admiral vs combatant commander vs ???). Without a foreseeable future for the C-2 follow on, it really looks like the V-22 will win by default.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
To counter one of Kmac's arguments in favor of the V-22, why the heck does VRC need to transport SEAL's? In a very benign enviroment maybe, but Army has the 160th SOAR and AFSOC has entire wings dedicated to it with personnel who train to do nothing but supporting SOCOM. I have no idea how the VRC community would be able to get any meaningfuly training to keep current on that mission, much less find the time to train for it to begin with. The specialized equipment, including radar (not weather, think terrain following), ECM gear (the best), and crew (NFO's anyone? MC-130's have 2 or 3 Navs), will take up weight lessening the cargo capacity of the aircraft.

The easy, and previously proven, solution would be to fly AFSOC and Army assets off of Navy ships. Adding the SOCOM support mission to VRC would give very little return and too much away from the core mission, supplying the carrier.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
There's a lot of good "V-22's aren't the answer" points being made, but I think what's being missed is we don't know what is the answer. The default answer is "the C-2B," but it's a long way from IOC. Unless someone upstream makes it a priority real damn quick, we're going to be in a spot in a few years where we discover some serious aging issues that can't be fixed, or can't be fixed quick, and still don't have a replacement on the way. The 60S wasn't a perfect replacement for the Phrog, but it's what we've got. Might be the same way with the V-22.
 

HooverPilot

CODPilot
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
To counter one of Kmac's arguments in favor of the V-22, why the heck does VRC need to transport SEAL's? In a very benign enviroment maybe, but Army has the 160th SOAR and AFSOC has entire wings dedicated to it with personnel who train to do nothing but supporting SOCOM. I have no idea how the VRC community would be able to get any meaningfuly training to keep current on that mission, much less find the time to train for it to begin with. The specialized equipment, including radar (not weather, think terrain following), ECM gear (the best), and crew (NFO's anyone? MC-130's have 2 or 3 Navs), will take up weight lessening the cargo capacity of the aircraft.

The easy, and previously proven, solution would be to fly AFSOC and Army assets off of Navy ships. Adding the SOCOM support mission to VRC would give very little return and too much away from the core mission, supplying the carrier.

The capability of operating with SEALs has been a core VRC mission area for quite some time. The Navy deems it valuable to have the capability to deploy the SEALs from a sea based assett (CVN). No other fixed wing platform has that capability. Of course in the recent past SEALs don't embark on the CVN like the used too & for a while the paradrop mission was suspended due to fatigue life issues (now being addressed by SLEP). VRC has been used most recently as a training platform during the IDTC. We have proven to be more flexible and efficient than the existing contractors. There has also been some other cutting edge stuff planned & briefed but has yet to come to fruitition (SIPR for details). Events like the IKE/Somalia missions last year were perfect times to employ assets from the COD.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
HC-4 moved from Sig to Norfolk earlier this year. So, okay, they're not "gone" but they're not forward-deployed anymore.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
HC-4 moved from Sig to Norfolk earlier this year. So, okay, they're not "gone" but they're not forward-deployed anymore.

I rented a house to the MMCPO when HC-4 was beginning the process of moving back from Sig (summer of 2005) so he could facilitate the move and oversee the mods (armor plus ramp gun) to enable them to deploy to the sanbox.

hc4_insig.jpg
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
HC-4 moved from Sig to Norfolk earlier this year. So, okay, they're not "gone" but they're not forward-deployed anymore.

Well, actually, HC-4 decommed awhile back, so they are gone. All I was getting at was that -14 and -15 are both still doing the VOD dealy-o.
 
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