And the PRT changes yet again

[Spekkio]

So when I'm working from 0700 to 1700 (aside from duty days) or when I'm underway and working what is essentially a 24 hour schedule, what should I sacrifice to go workout? Sleep time? Family time? Time when I need to run errands just to live my life? If you expect me to get an excellent low (Especially for the aforementioned lineman types like myself) then you better give me time to PT or at least make it a priority ahead of SAPR, records keeping GMT, PB4T that takes 4 hours, and other nonsense.

Sailors always bitch about not being treated like adults. God forbid you wake up 30 minutes earlier and go for a morning run or something like any other full time working adult has to do. No, instead let's blame poor fitness on 'the man' and ominous GMT requirements. I think GMT is as much a waste of time as anyone else, but I'd be lying to you if I claimed I spent more than a fraction of a percent of my time on them.

The idea that we need two hour blocks in a ship's routine to maintain a basic level of fitness is absurd. It takes 20 minutes or less for an in shape person to run 2-3 miles. Doing that MWF and some kind of strength training on TTh for that same 20-30 minutes will get you an excellent low. Coincidentally, that's the level of activity called for in the Navy PRT guidance. Weird.

 

[AllAmerican75]

You left work that early in port?

Not when I worked in engineering and not when I was on duty. You're making my point for me. When you work 12+ hours a day, spend an hour in the car, and the have family duties, it's asking a lot to carve another hour or two out of your free time so you can meet an arbitrary standard that may or may not match what you actually need to do your job. Again, if you want to make it a job requirement then you need to provide time to train for it. We don't tell Sailors to go home and practice DC drills.

QUOTE="Spekkio, post: 1008750, member: 9533"]
Sailors always bitch about not being treated like adults. God forbid you wake up and go for a morning run or something like any other working adult has to do. It takes 20 minutes or less for an in shape person to run 2-3 miles. Doing that MWF and some kind of strength training on TTh for that same 20-30 minutes will get you an excellent low. You're welcome.
[/QUOTE]

Bullshit. I've never been able to run very fast, even when I was at OCS. I'm simply not built for running and it's only gotten worse since my football and Navy injuries have caught up with me. However, I can swim and row with ease and it takes very little to get into the excellent range for those events. Again, different people need different training regimens which require different resources and time. This idea that our dudes and dudettes can simply get up an hour earlier to go PT, drive 30+ minutes into work (Obviously not in Norfolk), work a 12+ hour day, drive 30+ minutes home, and still have a decent home life is ridiculous. It's this mindset that has made retention such a problem in the Surface and Submarine communities.

 

[Spekkio]

Bullshit. I've never been able to run very fast, even when I was at OCS.

I think that you believe an excellent low is much faster than it actually is.

I'm simply not built for running and it's only gotten worse since my football and Navy injuries have caught up with me. However, I can swim and row with ease and it takes very little to get into the excellent range for those events.

Good thing that the Navy has alternate cardio options.

This idea that our dudes and dudettes can simply get up an hour earlier to go PT, drive 30+ minutes into work (Obviously not in Norfolk), work a 12+ hour day, drive 30+ minutes home, and still have a decent home life is ridiculous. It's this mindset that has made retention such a problem in the Surface and Submarine communities.

So let's fix what's keeping them at work for 12 hours instead of buying into excuses on why it's too hard to PT for 2.5-3 hours a week.

When you start whining about commutes, children, etc and figuring out when to exercise is where you lose me. These are things that every working man has to balance. It's unreasonable to call for every sailor's chain of command to manage it for them.

 

[BigRed389]

You left work that early in port?

Sailors always bitch about not being treated like adults. God forbid you wake up 30 minutes earlier and go for a morning run or something like any other working adult has to do. No, instead let's blame poor fitness on 'the man' and ominous GMT requirements. I think GMT is as much a waste of time as anyone else, but I'd be lying to you if I claimed I spent more than a fraction of a percent of my time on them.

The idea that we need two hour blocks in a ship's routine to maintain a basic level of fitness is absurd. It takes 20 minutes or less for an in shape person to run 2-3 miles. Doing that MWF and some kind of strength training on TTh for that same 20-30 minutes will get you an excellent low. Coincidentally, that's the level of activity called for in the Navy PRT guidance. Weird.

CNO guidance says PT shall be integrated into the work week and CO's are responsible for it.
Given the level of control COs have over their personnel and liberty, I would say this is a fair responsibility to make them own.

If you are providing a decent QOL with some autonomy to your personnel I'd say what you're proposing with "big boy rules" is fine.
For a shore duty command with fairly normal working hours, yeah, figure your shit out.

When your command is like mine on sea duty as an O1 in the yards, and you are 0500 - 0000 door to door from home for about 4 months straight, then fuck no, it's on the command to make it work. And yes, with more experience, I realize there was no good reason for us to be working those insane hours, and I've definitely seen/heard much less of that in the fleet now. As for "fixing it" other than firing the DH, I don't know what would have fixed it - and the CO/XO certainly gave zero fucks about the hours we were working.

On the flip side of this is quality of food served - and that is another one much of the Navy still fucks away.

 

[Spekkio]

CNO guidance says PT shall be integrated into the work week and CO's are responsible for it.

CO's are responsible for fitness, yes, but nothing says that it has to occur during normal working hours. It also says that members should get 2.5 hours per week.

A CO who musters everyone with the CFL at 0600 to do a 2 mile run, a few sets of pushups, and a few sets of planks every day and then requires them to be at work by 0700 would be in accordance with. He'd also get hammered on his command climate survey. Be careful what you ask for if you want someone else to 'own' your fitness routine.

 

[Gatordev]

You do have a habit of refusing to see anything other than your own experiences.

CO's are responsible for fitness, yes, but nothing says that it has to occur during normal working hours. It also says that members should get 2.5 hours per week.

A CO who musters everyone with the CFL at 0600 to do a 2 mile run, a few sets of pushups, and a few sets of planks every day and then requires them to be at work by 0700 would be in accordance with. He'd also get hammered on his command climate survey. Be careful what you ask for if you want someone else to 'own' your fitness routine.

While I was a DH, the CO actually got repeated complaints/requests for PT before work. The DIVOs (which included senior Chiefs...yes, that's capitalized correctly) and I were of course concerned about having them there early and then sometimes having to keeping them late to finish out the work for the day. Surprisingly, there wasn't a lot of complaining about having to work a little later in the day when it was needed. Apparently the CMC thought this was a hill to die on, despite not having a clue what the maintainers did downstairs.

My DIVOs and I had the same thinking you do...let them PT on their own, but that's not what they wanted. Apparently the mindset is if they were forced to work out, then they would, otherwise they wouldn't. And yes, we all know Command PT 2-times a week didn't make an athlete. And of course, this mindset isn't going to be at every command. But it was interesting to see the deckplate mindset at a command that worked hard due to poor manning, but still had a decent command climate.

 

[Pags]

You do have a habit of refusing to see anything other than your own experiences.



While I was a DH, the CO actually got repeated complaints/requests for PT before work. The DIVOs (which included senior Chiefs...yes, that's capitalized correctly) and I were of course concerned about having them there early and then sometimes having to keeping them late to finish out the work for the day. Surprisingly, there wasn't a lot of complaining about having to work a little later in the day when it was needed. Apparently the CMC thought this was a hill to die on, despite not having a clue what the maintainers did downstairs.

My DIVOs and I had the same thinking you do...let them PT on their own, but that's not what they wanted. Apparently the mindset is if they were forced to work out, then they would, otherwise they wouldn't. And yes, we all know Command PT 2-times a week didn't make an athlete. And of course, this mindset isn't going to be at every command. But it was interesting to see the deckplate mindset at a command that worked hard due to poor manning, but still had a decent command climate.

This is kind of what I saw as the best approach to PT. Muster everyone and then let them go do their own thing while providing guided PT for those who want/need it. Groups will eventually form and all the crossfit guys will go deadlift, some guys will play soccer, some guys will go for a run, some will do their daily seven and paced run, and others will hide and do nothing. The nothing doers will eventually be found out and dealt with via PRT failures. This let's people do what they enjoy while still incorporating it into the workday.

 

[Spekkio]

You do have a habit of refusing to see anything other than your own experiences...

My DIVOs and I had the same thinking you do...let them PT on their own, but that's not what they wanted. Apparently the mindset is if they were forced to work out, then they would, otherwise they wouldn't.

Oh I'm fully aware that this mindset exists and if I wasn't then AllAmerican75's post would have set me straight.

That's why I said he was part of 'the problem'. 'The problem' referring to the ubiquitous mentality that 'if the Navy wants me to be in shape then the Navy has to give me time for it during the normal work day.'

Admittedly my perspective is from the category of people who are self motivated to exercise. Because of that, I would be very annoyed if my CO forced me into the gym with over 100 other sailors and I couldn't get through my routine in a timely manner. I would much rather go at an off peak time so I can get done in an hour or so. I can understand people benefiting from the motivation of someone requiring them to be there and dressed just to keep them disciplined enough not to just hit the snooze button.

Did you do anything to account for people who already had a routine or was it mandatory for everyone?

 

[nittany03]

Admittedly my perspective is from the category of people who are self motivated to exercise.

The problem is that you seemingly refuse to put yourself in someone else's shoes, both from a motivation perspective and a life experience perspective.

 

[scoolbubba]

The everyday working man is not evaluated on his physical fitness as a condition of his employment (this obviously excludes physically demanding jobs which naturally sort themselves out). He or she makes it a priority, not his or her employer.

When one is liable to be fired or disciplined based on their lack of fitness by their employer, it is incumbent on the employer to provide the time and equipment to meet that standard. This isn't complicated. Either fitness is a readiness priority and it gets funding and time dedicated to maintaining it just like everything else, or it's not and it doesn't.

 

[Angry]

There also seems to be a big piece of this puzzle missing. Physical fitness is getting mixed in with physical health. Sure the two are related, but not the same. You don’t need to work out every day, or even at all, to be within height and weight standards. I know plenty of people (I’m not one of them) who effectively control their weight by eating healthy. If you choose not to spend personal time working out, don’t eat like shit.

 

[Jim123]

The idea that if the Navy wants you to be in shape but shouldn't have to carve out time during the normal workday should come with a corollary- the normal workday should be normal hours. Notwithstanding any chest thumping about the long hours and making it work if you put your mind to it, endless months 12, 15, or 18 hour workdays are dumb. If the Navy is going to work you that hard and also expect you to be fit (for health, damage control, warfighting, survival when the ship gets sunk) then they had better carve out time for PT. Otherwise, catch phrases about taking care of people and our most valuable resources are nothing more than a mockery of readiness.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

The everyday working man is not evaluated on his physical fitness as a condition of his employment (this obviously excludes physically demanding jobs which naturally sort themselves out). He or she makes it a priority, not his or her employer.

When one is liable to be fired or disciplined based on their lack of fitness by their employer, it is incumbent on the employer to provide the time and equipment to meet that standard. This isn't complicated. Either fitness is a readiness priority and it gets funding and time dedicated to maintaining it just like everything else, or it's not and it doesn't.

By that line of reasoning, do FNG’s get dedicated study time at the squadron? After all, they are required to learn their aircraft and tactics while doing their ground job.

 

[Spekkio]

By that line of reasoning, do FNG’s get dedicated study time at the squadron? After all, they are required to learn their aircraft and tactics while doing their ground job.

When one of my COBs put dinq study during the normal work day, the crew damn near had an aneurysm. He didn't relent though. End result is no one actually went until the triad paid attention, not unlike when the there's a 2 hour PT/lunch block that sailors use to go to Applebee's if there's not a good accountability system.

The idea that if the Navy wants you to be in shape but shouldn't have to carve out time during the normal workday should come with a corollary- the normal workday should be normal hours. Notwithstanding any chest thumping about the long hours and making it work if you put your mind to it, endless months 12, 15, or 18 hour workdays are dumb. If the Navy is going to work you that hard and also expect you to be fit (for health, damage control, warfighting, survival when the ship gets sunk) then they had better carve out time for PT. Otherwise, catch phrases about taking care of people and our most valuable resources are nothing more than a mockery of readiness.

Full agreement here. I think the discussion of work days lasting too long is a separate issue. Requiring a 1400-1500 PT hour (notional example) in those cases isn't really helping the actual issue.

We need to dedicate more time to formally teaching personnel planning and management tools and techniques to senior enlisted and junior officers during leadership courses. We expect this is something everyone will 'pick up as they go.' Some never do for a variety of different reasons and it doesn't become obvious until they're in charge of a division / department / ship.

 

[SlickAg]

By that line of reasoning, do FNG’s get dedicated study time at the squadron? After all, they are required to learn their aircraft and tactics while doing their ground job.

If you’re falling behind on that aspect, there will be multiple people telling you about it, and ensuring that it’s getting fixed. If it doesn’t, the end result is a FNAEB.

But I wouldn’t use a very specific example like this to frame a policy for the whole Navy.

As for your point, among tacair pilots the Marines actually seem to be the worst at immediately determining who the “haves” and “have-nots” are in terms of who’s going to get the flight time needed for quals, upgrades, etc. Are you implying that it’s all determined based off of who puts in the most amount of study time when they’re an FNG, without taking any other factors into account?