Another nail in the coffin of Old-School Naval Avaition..

[kmac]

I think bags are a great recruiting tool. Living in OK...when I was a little kid I was always in awe of seeing a pilot in their flight suit. I wanted to be just like them one day.

Guess I'm in the minority.

That's how AF Public Affairs sees it too. Despite our complaining about AF regs, they at least have support from the PAO side of the hosue for wearing bags out in town. The same can be said for the Army.

If the Navy really gave a damn about uniform appearance, it wouldn't have polyester-wool blend suits (SBDs or the upcoming SDKs) or 100% polyester ones (SDWs). You wouldn't wear that on the civilian side unless you were a poor college student or had some financial trouble. We say we want to be presentable and professional but we would be a laughing stock if compared to our civilian peers.

 

[Lawman]

*If you need to buy groceries or gas, why not just stop on base? Bags are OK in the commissary.

Because the stuff outside the gate is open later than 1800 and doesnt typically close 2-3 days out of the week because your on a poorly supported post in Europe.

We've got the same kind of crap over here in Germany except it went from "No _____ off post" to "Try not to look American while driving a truck and sporting a stupid haircut" off post. So essentially we were relegated to eating on post, doing any mid day errands on post, not stopping for gas (no kidding) in uniforms when transiting hours across Germany going TDY.... Yeah all because some asshat got on the bus from Frankfurt full of soldiers who are still traveling in Uniform after the event and shot it up. "Hey look! We're leadership because we made a change... Now check the box and the next time a random chance event happens that had nothing to do with anything we can say we already put steps in place to mitigate it and cant be blamed."

 

[pilot_man]

Honestly, the only reason to wear a flight suit off base is if you're on a cross-country or out-and-in. Why is this a big deal. If you really need to stop on the way home, have a pair of shorts and a t-shirt at the office.

Yes, I've jammed in and out of ATMs and occasionally a gas station before I ran dry, but if you're in one place long enough to get hassled, you've already exceeded the "brief and essential" stop rule, which, by the way doesn't exist in Marine land. I lived in Jacksonville, North Carolina, for 13 years without getting hassled once. If someone is getting hassled for wearing a bag, I have no sympathy. It's your own fault and you're doing it wrong.

I just don't get it. What does it hurt for me to wear by bag in town? Don't give me the "it's dirty" excuse because that is bull shit. My flight suit is never dirty. Just as easy as it might be to throw some civies in the car, there is no reason for it. It's easier for me to just keep wearing my bag and do what I need to do. Obviously the ex-Air boss thinks the same way since he is the one who started making the changes.

 

[Recovering LSO]

^ find your local Masterchief. They're the ones who seem to take the most offense to it.

The question still remains though; is it worth shifting to USAF regulations (loss or organizational identities) to wear your bag to the grocery store?

 

[MasterBates]

Yep.. What Pilot_Man said..

Not all squadrons have locker rooms. I have to change in a shitter stall if I want to change, or kick everyone out of QA and close the door.

And for the "go to commissary".. Commissary is opposite direction from house, is normally closed/closing when I am in a rush, and I drive RIGHT BY THE FARM FRESH to go home.

Brief stops ARE legal. Problem most of us run into is "What is a Brief Stop?"

I think grocery store for a handbasket's worth, or less, is legit. Especially after the commissary is closed.
I also think, running into the local gym to grab my iPod I left in the locker room from the desk guy is legit.
Hardware store for 2-3 small items I need? Yeah.
Home Depot/Lowes for squadron stuff as long as I am in and out after one or two items (Our hangar is trashed, and the base won't fix it, so Omess buys a lot of shit there to make shit work)
McBurgers to go inside and unfuck the drive thru order they screwed up 8 ways to Sunday (this was two days ago in Fallon)
Post Office to mail something
Post Office to check my PO BOX
Motorcycle dealer to grab a tube for my tire that is going flat.
BOAT/US to buy a bottle of STARTRON because the NEX Marina Store was not open during posted hours
Auto Parts store after walking there to fix broken down truck on way home.
The Norfolk Commissary
The off base NEX/Commisary complex in Mayport
The on base NEX Subway in Mayport
Camp Allen MCX

These are ALL places where I have had some jackhole give me shit for being in a bag. More often than not, a SWO. Fast Food seems to be the domain of the CPO though.

Only ONCE has it been an aviator. And he has stars.

I don't want to go clubbing/bar crawling in my bag.

I would like to do normal things, normal people do on the way home from work without changing.

 

[jollygreen07]

is it worth shifting to USAF regulations (loss or organizational identities) to wear your bag to the grocery store?

No. It may just be a stupid red/whatever color T-shirt, but little things like that are exactly what made me feel bad for the guys I went through T-1's with. It's exactly why those same guys still tell me today that they wish they were flying for the Navy. Even though the AF has the gucci gear etc etc, they are still the Air Force, and they don't have those little things. In TACAMO we are as close as you get to the Air Force. Big jet, don't land on a boat, do most of our work on Air Force bases, so perhaps that's why it's bugging me soo much. We are just blurring the line even more.

 

[helolumpy]

If flights suits are not meant to be seen off base, then why all the push to standardize them?

If it's a uniform, then it requires standardization. If it's just working coveralls, then who really cares what color T shirt I wear under it?

Nothing says Naval Aviation to the general public like a flight suit. The Blues wear their gucci blue bags to hospitals and receptions. Why do they do that? It identifies you as a military aviator and the Navy should take some pride in that fact.

If folks want to change into other clothes to stop into the store to get milk, then that's their decision, but when I wear my bag and have to make a quick stop, folks notice the flight suit and immediately think about aviation. As long as you don't look like a pile of crap, then only good things can come from promoting naval aviation. If you look like a dirtbag in Khakis, is that more acceptable than a flight suit? Is getting shit-faced in a bar some how more socially acceptable if your in summer whites? I won't even mention the gawd-awful NWU's. (even the Air Force in their tiger stripes with GREEN boots makes fun of that uniform!)

If the Navy wants to go back to the old days of not wearing them off base, fine. But as long as the Navy is going to require me to shell out my own money to buy shoulder insignia, a specific name patch, a single colored shirt for underneath it, then I'm going to wear it out in town.

 

[MasterBates]

Anecdotal, but worth mentioning.

At one point, in JAX, the powers that be, loosened up bag regs. Since I lived way far up north, I'd swing by WinnDixie or such on my way home, to avoid going home, changing, to drive 10 miles back into town.

I had at least ten high school kids ask me how I became a pilot. One of the kids was serious enough I helped him get his stuff together to apply to ROTC and USNA.

It's a good recruiting/PR tool. Especially in places like Jax, where the whole town is not Navy.

 

[ChunksJR]

^ find your local Masterchief. They're the ones who seem to take the most offense to it.

Don't hate the playa...

 

[Dawgfan]

And for the "go to commissary".. Commissary is opposite direction from house, is normally closed/closing when I am in a rush, and I drive RIGHT BY THE FARM FRESH to go home.

"The NEX Marina Store was not open during posted hours so...." How is this line of thinking any different than every other Captains Mast you've ever witnessed? Is the amount of water it holds about the same?

I'm sorry dude, this whining is getting annoying. Yeah it sucks to have to go home and change before you go to the grocery store. But it is the.right.thing.to.do. Most people subscribe to it. I've seen one person in a bag in our commercial grocery store. And I thought they were a douchebag for doing it. MBates you don't seem like that bad of a guy, but I'm gonna have to call b-s on this one.

 

[phrogdriver]

Quit your damned bitching. While the PX examples are bogus, you know you're playing with fire at the grocery store, hardware store, et al. Those are hardly brief or essential. I love ya, MB, but I sometimes think you're the peasant in the Holy Grail. "I'm being oppressed!"

Is there a good rationale for no bags outside the base? Not really. There's no real reason wearing my blues with medals is not authorized on liberty while with ribbons it is. Have I stretched that rule on November 10? Yeah, because that was one time and place--I had SA and picked the right one. You just want to wear it whenever. Fine, join the service that lets you do that.

Just freaking deal. Maybe I'm biased in Marineland, where all we wear is bags and cammies, neither of which fly in town. Either come home, then do errands, or bring a pair of shorts. Bring a fucking towel, Sport Kilt, or whatever if you don't have a locker room.

Jesus H. Quit your wanking.

 

[MasterBates]

It's already been proven I don't play well in the USN.

I just brought out the examples I could think of over the last 10 years. But hey, whatever.

I'm glad to have served, but the lengths to which stupid shit is a problem in the military really makes me fucking wonder some days. I guess I'm just 'that guy'.

When the powers that be care more about flight suit regs than making planes safer (or in the case of the E-2, making a PRIMARY SAFETY SYSTEM FUNCTION) or winning wars, it says a lot. I would have been OK with the keeping shit as it was, and having the laminated reg card that proves I can in fact, stop for milk, go to the post office, go to the Navy Federal that's on base but not inside the gate, etc to shut up the holier than thou types.

Per the regs as my commands have interpreted them, the only ones that I was not legal on in those examples was the StarTron (fuel additive my boat needs to burn pump gas with ethanol) and the hardware store.

With the StarTron I had already driven across town to Little Creek.. And they were closed 2 hours before closing time without notice. I knew West Marine Express had it, and was pissed and said fuck it, went in, got it, and got blocked in by a SWO LT, who wanted to "counsel" me. (he was in SmurfCam, and had just walked out of a Chinese place for take out)

The other time? I was supposed to leave work at 1500 because I needed to go get a valve to fix my boiler so I could have this nice thing called HEAT. AOM ran until 1630. Store closed at 1700. I bag striked. I know the "proper" answer would have been to go home, use 8 MRE heater packs and wear my issue polypro to bed, but I was fresh out of MREs.

The rest of the times? Within regs.

The change would avoid those awkward confrontations when you have some jackhole trying to tell you that you can't get your mail from your PO box (you can) in a flight suit.

Since we already have the "must all look same" part, we have taken the Air Force wear method. Might as well get the benefit.

 

[Brett327]

I'm gonna bite my tongue in a big way here, but I concur. People who habitually break the rules, whether we agree with them or not, are going to be harassed. Should we be able to wear bags in town, yes. Since we aren't, how about everyone act like a fucking officer and be a good example for the folks that we are supposed to be leading.

Brett

 

[ChunksJR]

. Since we aren't, how about everyone act like a fucking officer and be a good example for the folks that we are supposed to be leading.

But the Hip Pocket is too good and I don't have another uniform.
I'm not stationed here.
NWU = Working uniform : Flight Suit = Working uniform

There are 3 reasons I'll hit the Hip Pocket tomorrow.

 

[Brett327]

But the Hip Pocket is too good and I don't have another uniform.
I'm not stationed here.
NWU = Working uniform : Flight Suit = Working uniform

There are 3 reasons I'll hit the Hip Pocket tomorrow.

Like I said, there are good reasons to "legalize" bags off base and we ought to lobby for that. Until then, don't be "that guy."

Brett