CJCS responds to Rep. Gaetz

[taxi1]

First off, none of us voted for the "socialist benefits" we receive. Second, most of the benefits you mention are in no way socialist. Our pay, retirement benefits, BAS, recreation program, gyms, MWR, chowhalls, etc... These are all benefits most large employers offer.

I was born in a navy hospital, lived in free navy housing for many, many years, parents shopped at the government-run grocery store and exchange, was seen by the corpsman at the clinic, swam at the government-paid for pool, etc., etc., etc. No one getting rich, especially on the enlisted side, but all of the basic needs covered. It was socialist paradise as all get out.

I don’t know any company providing any kind of similar services. Well, sort of, back in the day...

My father grew up in coal country. His father had to live in a company house and had to shop at the company store when he worked for the particular mine. But no medical or recreation for the family, of course.

 

[Mirage]

I was born in a navy hospital, lived in free navy housing for many, many years, parents shopped at the government-run grocery store and exchange, was seen by the corpsman at the clinic, swam at the government-paid for pool, etc., etc., etc. No one getting rich, especially on the enlisted side, but all of the basic needs covered. It was socialist paradise as all get out.

I don’t know any company providing any kind of similar services. Well, sort of, back in the day...

My father grew up in coal country. His father had to live in a company house and had to shop at the company store when he worked for the particular mine. But no medical or recreation for the family, of course.

-Those were earned benefits contingent on your parent's continued employment and willingness to sign contracts that strip them of their basic freedoms and put them in harm's way if necessary. Quite different than giving them out to everyone just for having a pulse.

-Plenty of companies provide housing as a part of the compensation package. From skydiving companies to Google. Hell, my college provided housing for profs like you. All the others provide pay to get your own housing (BAH)

-healthcare benefits are also provided by almost all employers. Ours are just better than most (and even that is debatable), and they are better because they must be for national security. The military builds hospitals in places like Norfolk because it's cheaper than letting us all go to civilians.

-pools/gyms are provided by plenty of companies. Regardless, our continued physical fitness is a job requirement, and necessary for national defense.

 

[taxi1]

-Plenty of companies provide housing as a part of the compensation package. From skydiving companies to Google. Hell, my college provided housing for profs like you. All the others provide pay to get your own housing (BAH)

Does Sheetz, McDonalds, 7-11, any local construction companies near you provide housing for their front line employees? Does your college give free housing to the janitors? Run a medical clinic paid for by the company for its employees? Because that is what the military gives it’s lowest paid bottom rung mop pushing potato peeling employee. All of that. For their family too.

 

[Spekkio]

Do we really not know the cause? The cause of this disparity seems pretty obvious to me. Groups of people have been systematically oppressed and the government went out of their way to take away educational opportunities. Is it any surprise they aren't scoring high?

Legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, atrocious treatment of Chinese and Japanese workers in the 19th and 20th centuries, Japanese internment during WWII, the incoherent economic demand for illicit low wage labor in our agricultural and service industries while obsessing about illegal immigration and building a border wall.

To put it mildly, the plight of non-whites in this country has been absolutely fucked.

No, it's not obvious because that hypothesis doesn't explain why Asians have a median household income of $98k, Indians have a median income of $100k, while whites have a median household income of $70k. It doesn't explain why hispanics outperform blacks in median household income by 25% ($51k vs $41k), and that hispanics are on a trend to equal the household income of whites within the next 20 years while blacks are not.

If the answer were discrimination then ALL racial and ethnic minorities would be below the median income of whites and have similar test scores / income among the various groups. They do not.

 

[DanMa1156]

Does Sheetz, McDonalds, 7-11, any local construction companies near you provide housing for their front line employees? Does your college give free housing to the janitors? Run a medical clinic paid for by the company for its employees? Because that is what the military gives it’s lowest paid bottom rung mop pushing potato peeling employee. All of that. For their family too.

Regardless of how you suggest it, it's still a benefit exclusively contingent on the basis of continued employment. I am sure that the E-1 CS is also working longer hours than the average McDonald's worker, and is being put on ships that may go into harm's way. Oh, and when he deploys, his housing (barracks room) goes away and he needs to pack his stuff up into his rack. Then when he gets back from deployment, he gets on a waiting list to get back to the barracks.

Regardless of the quality and availability of the housing, the military only offers those benefits as a condition of employment. Having to leave soon, I'm not going to google it, but there's good evidence out there that Congress gives many of those benefits to keep military pay lower than necesssary in an attempt to keep the pensions lower. That was specifically true for why BAH was 100% for many years (it's down to 95% plus no renters' insurance). Also, not to nitpick, but the NEX is designed to operate as a "for-profit" business, although the commissary obviously does not.

 

[DanMa1156]

No, it's not obvious because that hypothesis doesn't explain why Asians have a median household income of $98k while whites have a median household income of $70k. It doesn't explain why hispanics outperform blacks in median household income by 25% ($51k vs $41k), and that hispanics are on a trend to equal the household income of whites within the next 20 years while blacks are not.

If the answer were discrimination then ALL racial and ethnic minorities would be below average and have similar scores / income. They do not.

That assumes people are equally racist to anyone who is non white. I think that's a poor assumption. It also assumes minorities aren't racist towards each other.

Also, household income is a stupid form to measure progress or wealth, although I'm stating that for the group as I suspect you don't feel strongly about it either.

 

[Spekkio]

That assumes people are equally racist to anyone who is non white. I think that's a poor assumption. It also assumes minorities aren't racist towards each other.

That seems to be the going fad by using the phrase 'people of color' to refer to all racial and ethnic minorities in the U.S.

Regardless, are you claiming that the 6% of Asians in the U.S. are oppressing the 13% of blacks, and that's why educational and income disparities exist? Do you realize that, in aggregate, these two groups mostly don't live in the same parts of the country?

Also, household income is a stupid form to measure progress or wealth

How would you measure it?

 

[taxi1]

I’m not trying to paint the mil family life as a paradise (although I used paradise upthread) but I am saying that if you want to know what it feels like to live in a socialist society, join the military. Then ask your kids.

I still remember stepping on a nail and seeing the corpsman. He was a FMF dude, tattooed up, and told me it was just like treating a bullet wound. That’s powerful mojo for an 8 year old.

It was also a classed society. I went to the Chiefs club pool at NAS Oceana. I didn’t go to the Officer’s Club unless I went as a guest. I coveted their high dive.

We ate at the Chief’s Club on payday, which used to be on the backside of Oceana over where the skeet shooting ranges are and where it looks like camper and boat storage is now. I used to sneak over from there towards the runway (no fence) to watch jets takeoff and land, and must have got spotted by the tower one time...they sent out a truck. Sat there and watched jets with the guy, I’m guessing I was his excuse to stay away from the chief.

It’s less so now than when I was a mil brat during the full-on Cold War. Draft was going on too. Now it’s much more like a job, even in moving from defined benefits to contributions, and of course all volunteer.

I am sure that the E-1 CS is also working longer hours than the average McDonald's worker,

While on shore duty at NAS Anacostia, my dad worked a second night/weekend job to make ends meet.

 

[Mos]

AWs has become IWAGR.

I agree it seems that way in some threads, but when the more moderate folks attack your argument, then the problem is probably with your argument.

 

[robav8r]

Does Sheetz, McDonalds, 7-11, any local construction companies near you provide housing for their front line employees? Does your college give free housing to the janitors? Run a medical clinic paid for by the company for its employees? Because that is what the military gives it’s lowest paid bottom rung mop pushing potato peeling employee. All of that. For their family too.

They also swear an oath to the constitution and deploy wherever, and whenever Uncle Sam sees fit. Does Sheetz, McDonalds, 7-11, any local construction companies near you place those same demands on those employees?

 

[taxi1]

They also swear an oath to the constitution and deploy wherever, and whenever Uncle Sam sees fit. Does Sheetz, McDonalds, 7-11, any local construction companies near you place those same demands on those employees?

Mirage’s college probably doesn’t demand swearing an oath either. Nor google for their engineers to get housing assistance (but I doubt for their janitors).

That’s neither here nor there to whether the mil are essentially living in a socialist society. They are, for whatever the justification.

 

[Mirage]

Mirage’s college probably doesn’t demand swearing an oath either. Nor google for their engineers (but I doubt for their janitors).

That’s neither here nor there to whether the mil are essentially living in a socialist society. They are, for whatever the justification.

You're first paragraph proves my point for me. Plenty of companies, due to pressures placed on them by a capitalist society that encourages competition, have decided it is to their benefit to offer the same benefits we receive. The fact that all companies don't offer all these benefits to all their employees is irrelevant.

But regardless, I see your point that we have all our needs provided for, like one would in a socialist society. The key difference is that we are earning these benefits, which means it is not socialism. Socialism is giving everyone everything they need with no strings attached.

 

[robav8r]

. . . . . whatever the justification.

Wow.

 

[Hotdogs]

That’s neither here nor there to whether the mil are essentially living in a socialist society. They are, for whatever the justification.

I think your own value system intuitively makes you think you’re receiving the things you list for free. In reality they’re part of a larger compensation package that if it didn’t exist it would cause serious degradation in capability and a monumental exodus in human resources.

Many of things you list are requirement for the military in general to execute its mission. Commissaries have been around since the early 1800s to provide for troops in the west because a civilian logistics network did not exist to support frontier soldiers. The same issue was present in European economies post-WWII and Cold War that have evolved into what we know today. You could argue that the commissary should lose its subsidies from the US Government. However, that would only cause a rise in service member basic pay or BAS. The DoD has obviously done the cost benefit analysis and it makes sense to subsidize.

The DoD has to maintain a deployable medical and dental capacity. It also has to have a capability to receive and care for service members during a conflict. It is only a benefit that they can provide for service member families in peace. Again, if this did not exist already - there would be a commensurate rise in compensation and/or insurance premiums to cover costs commonly covered by the private sector. If you need any justification of the military’s priorities when it comes to medical care take a look at how many military families were bumped from an on base medical provider at LRMC in Germany from 2005-08.

Housing is another non-sequitur. You don’t have to live on base. Once you earn or attain a certain rank it becomes completely optional. Barracks have provided a quick an easy place to rapidly mobilize and pass information to a military organization for thousands of years. It’s an operational requirement.

Lastly and most importantly military service is optional and voluntary. Contrary to popular belief in today’s military - You can leave without full filling your contract. The arguments I have read so far are a basic regurgitation for the justification of socialist policies in the private sector vice an actual analysis of the social constructs and operational requirements of the U.S. Military. It is at best a disingenuous interpretation of the DoD’s requirements to maintain its various title responsibilities.

 

[nodropinufaka]

I live on an island where I am continuously referred to as a Haole and I am treated different than a "local". But it's okay because a non-white is calling me that and treating me different... And I just accept that it is what it is and ignore it.

I went to a high school that was 90% black and treated like shit, beat up regularly and other similar stuff. I had to go to the library for some of my classes because they were on floors where whites dare not go. But it was okay because it was blacks hating the white.... And I just figured out how to minimize the pain and ignore the assholes as much as possible.

I've lived racism against me and with being discriminated against as a white guy for 4 years of high school and the last 20 years in Hawaii. Both sides are equally capable and practice racism but one side refuses to accept that because white supremacy is everywhere and the root of all bad in there eyes.

Life is full of unfairness. People are people and a LT having that attitude with you does not make the Navy as an institution racist. If you had reported it, it would have been dealt with quickly and firmly. One asshole does not make the institution an asshole.

Our country has laws, court rulings, policies, etc. against discrimination. Maybe not so much in the past but we do in the present. As an institution, our government does not discriminate and it forbids businesses, organizations, schools, etc. from discriminating. That doesn't mean there isn't still racism and discrimination, but it is coming from individual people not society as a whole. Again, there will always be assholes.

People have choices. If you don't like your "poor" community that is lacking resources such as good schools - move. Good paying jobs lacking in your area - move. The opportunities are there for people of any color who have the perseverance and will to pursue them. It may be hard but so is life and anything worth having is worth working for. I saw this personally in my high school back in the 1980s. Those that wanted to succeed and better themselves pulled themselves out of the inner city economically depressed crime ridden ghetto and succeeded. I keep in touch with a few (yes, I did have some black friend despite the situation - the ones in my classes actually trying to get an education).

One of my closest friends is a pharmaceutical company executive in charge of sales in Florida, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina. He came from the intercity Gainsville, FL black ghetto. He was 1 of 9 children. His brothers and sisters never made it out as all they did was complain and not try. The also call him an Uncle Tom who "thinks he's better than black people". He sees the same thing happening with his nieces and nephews. There are a few working their asses off, doing what it takes to include moving, and succeeding.

We can't legislate the problem of racism away. We have to change the attitudes and thoughts of individual people of all colors. The woke left's solutions will just make the problem worse in that their solutions center around a victim & revenge scenario of taking from whites and giving to all others. Legally, both sides are equal and have the same opportunities, responsibilities, rules and regulations. What is lacking is an effective way to change attitudes. Taking from one side and giving to the other will not change the attitudes of those being taken from.

Non-whites also have to give up their victim attitude and understand that everything bad is not because of whites, everything a white guy does is not racist, education matters, effective parenting matters, and opportunity is there for those that seek it.

Oh yeah - and stop listening to the Al Sharptons, Lou Farrakahs and Jesse Jacksons of the world.

I have no idea what you’re socio-economic background was growing up.

but if you think if you’re poor and that there is no jobs then just go move and find one is a solution I’ll take it you haven’t experienced real generational poverty before or truly understand it.

which isn’t a slight against you. You have taken your opportunities and seemed to have made good use of them. There is zero wrong with that and no one should feel guilty for taking advantage of their opportunities in life especially the ones from their parents.

we are American and we all get a slice of the pie in our social experiment (easily greatest in the world). I just think a lot of people been shorted and only five partial pieces and now gotta play catch up.