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CJCS responds to Rep. Gaetz

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
The key difference is that we are earning these benefits, which means it is not socialism.
I was writing from a kid’s perspective, and I didn’t earn anything. I “won” the birth lottery and got dropped into a socialist society where the government took care of this kid’s needs. Although if the stork had stopped at a billionaire’s house, that’d have been OK too. It also could have stopped at your lazy welfare king/queen’s house and I’d have lived that life.

And I put quotes around the “won” because moving every three years including during the school year, living on shitty bases, and in shitty housing with termites falling from the ceiling (Beeville) and even enjoying a real life wake you up in the middle of the night emergency NEO ops bug out wasn’t great (although I was too young to remember that one).

But there I was, essentially the janitor’s son, with the facilities and med care and attention of Uncle Sam in my well-being same as the Admiral’s kid and far more than the civilian kids. That sense of community maybe wore off on me? Made me a better citizen? It certainly made me want to join myself.

As a reservist, by the way, it wasn’t like that for my kids during my deployments. No close base with easy access to services. Much more Transactional. Dad’s gone for a year, oh well.
I think your own value system intuitively makes you think you’re receiving the things you list for free.
I’m not talking about what’s deserved or not, I’m talking about what the society is like. And it’s like a slice of a socialist society.
 
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HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
but if you think if you’re poor and that there is no jobs then just go move and find one is a solution I’ll take it you haven’t experienced real generational poverty before or truly understand it.

I wasn’t poor, my Dad was an Army officer.

But I watched my high school class mates who were from generational poverty and wanted a better life figure out how to get it. It wasn’t easy and a big part of doing it was getting over the mindset of their family and neighbors. They decided to take responsibility for themselves and not to think like a victim.

I’ve known my friend the pharmaceutical executive for over 30 years and I know his 8 brother and sisters. They always complain about being a victim and do nothing to try and improve their lives. Their solution to everything? Ask for money from their Uncle Tom brother. They all think he owes them because he was successful and they weren’t. They fail completely to understand why. The just think he has, they don’t have and it’s all his (and everyone else’s) fault.

Is their mindset a product of generational poverty? Probably but that is what we as a society should be trying to change. The mindset of being a victim instead of a doer. The laws and enforcement mechanisms are there, the mindset is not. People need to start believing in themselves and opportunity instead of believing that they are victims.
 

SELRES_AMDO

Well-Known Member
Well, if you continually beat people down and screw them over then it is any surprise they accept that is their place in society?

Certain groups were continually oppressed and saying to "get over it and quit being a victim" seems pretty disingenuous especially when it was society that put them in that position in the first place. And it almost always comes from people that didn't have to "quit being a victim" to be successful in life.
 

nodropinufaka

Well-Known Member
Well, if you continually beat people down and screw them over then it is any surprise they accept that is their place in society?

Certain groups were continually oppressed and saying to "get over it and quit being a victim" seems pretty disingenuous especially when it was society that put them in that position in the first place. And it almost always comes from people that didn't have to "quit being a victim" to be successful in life.

Exactly.

Its very easy to say quit being a victim. Much harder to actually do.

The mechanism may or may not be in place now for them to achieve a better life.

But you get generations of people telling and teaching that it’s a rigged game and this is the result.

Of course they could go get a job, etc and change their life. But when you’re working and just trying to make sure your family eats it isn’t as simple as just go move to find better jobs.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
I was writing from a kid’s perspective, and I didn’t earn anything. I “won” the birth lottery and got dropped into a socialist society where the government took care of this kid’s needs. Although if the stork had stopped at a billionaire’s house, that’d have been OK too. It also could have stopped at your lazy welfare king/queen’s house and I’d have lived that life.

And I put quotes around the “won” because moving every three years including during the school year, living on shitty bases, and in shitty housing with termites falling from the ceiling (Beeville) and even enjoying a real life wake you up in the middle of the night emergency NEO ops bug out wasn’t great (although I was too young to remember that one).

But there I was, essentially the janitor’s son, with the facilities and med care and attention of Uncle Sam in my well-being same as the Admiral’s kid and far more than the civilian kids. That sense of community maybe wore off on me? Made me a better citizen? It certainly made me want to join myself.

As a reservist, by the way, it wasn’t like that for my kids during my deployments. No close base with easy access to services. Much more Transactional. Dad’s gone for a year, oh well.

I’m not talking about what’s deserved or not, I’m talking about what the society is like. And it’s like a slice of a socialist society.
C'mon, man... Most kids grow up with all of the same benefits you listed, whether their parents were military or not. A house, food, occasional trips to the pool, healthcare... Kids seldom have to worry about how to pay for these things in America. By that logic, the kids of a construction worker, for example, grows up in a socialist society.

No, you just had parents who took care of your needs, using the compensation package they earned, same as any other working parents who take care of their kids.
 

nodropinufaka

Well-Known Member
C'mon, man... Most kids grow up with all of the same benefits you listed, whether their parents were military or not. A house, food, occasional trips to the pool, healthcare... Kids seldom have to worry about how to pay for these things in America. By that logic, the kids of a construction worker, for example, grows up in a socialist society.

No, you just had parents who took care of your needs, using the compensation package they earned, same as any other working parents who take care of their kids.

I don’t know where you grew up but you do realize that a lot of kids go without food, lots go without healthcare, an a ton of people go without access to a pool.


not debating your point of socialism vs non socialism.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
That seems to be the going fad by using the phrase 'people of color' to refer to all racial and ethnic minorities in the U.S.

Regardless, are you claiming that the 6% of Asians in the U.S. are oppressing the 13% of blacks, and that's why educational and income disparities exist? Do you realize that, in aggregate, these two groups mostly don't live in the same parts of the country?


How would you measure it?

First point: I'm suggesting to you that an employer may be willing to hire an Asian, a Jew, or a Hispanic, but a Black may be his person of last resort, or may not hire him/her at all. That doesn't mean the employer isn't racist; it just means he's not a white supremicist because he's willing to hire non-whites. He still is a racist against/towards blacks. I bring this example up because, when you account for education, blacks are often the group of people who are hired last and see the least benefits of economic recoveries (my source here is, admittedly, The Indicator, not necessarily that episode, they have done a few on the topic of the unemployment gaps that exist). They are also the first to be fired/laid off from a job. Obviously, I'm not saying correlation = causation, but it's something to consider: are employers racist specifically against blacks? Would it be that hard to fathom that could be the case, enough to swing the needle of black unemployment to a number higher than whites or other minorities, even when you control for education level?

Second point: household sizes aren't standardized and rarely are so in terms of this measurement when reported. If a child who's living with his parents making $12k a year out of the $80k his two working parents combine to make finishes college and moves out after college making $60k, we see that his parents household income drops to $68k and his starts a new one at $60k. Was there a net detriment? Not necessarily, but it's a bad measurement of progress (in this case progress has been made - he's doing better than either one of his parents individually when they average out) or wealth (his parents' household reports a net loss in household income year over year). Furthermore, if you have a family with 10 people across multiple generations reporting a $100k household, then that demographic may look far more wealthy than they really are. What about reporting equity on a home? Some people may rent, and others may have just bought a home, but neither has equity, but often, the latter is reported with the full net worth of their home (incorrectly). The definition from the US Census Bureau would show that 2-4 flight school students would report a higher household income than a O-3 or O-4 working alone: "A family consists of two or more people (one of whom is the householder) related by birth, marriage, or adoption residing in the same housing unit. A household consists of all people who occupy a housing unit regardless of relationship. A household may consist of a person living alone or multiple unrelated individuals or families living together." There are many more problems with these uses, partially discussed here.

To answer your question: I'd measure it by income per adult. If you want to get more specific, measure it by that and then divide or otherwise control for dependent children to consider how many people they are responsible for feeding. There are better ways; Malcom Gladwell has discussed it I believe, but I can't remember which one of his books deep dives into this.
 

SELRES_AMDO

Well-Known Member
C'mon, man... Most kids grow up with all of the same benefits you listed, whether their parents were military or not. A house, food, occasional trips to the pool, healthcare... Kids seldom have to worry about how to pay for these things in America. By that logic, the kids of a construction worker, for example, grows up in a socialist society.

No, you just had parents who took care of your needs, using the compensation package they earned, same as any other working parents who take care of their kids.
Are you joking? Most of the kids I grew up with absolutely did not have those benefits.

Try growing up and suffering an injury and your parents have to decide if it really warrants a Dr visit because it might very well bankrupt them if they get medical bills. Or deciding which bill they can let go past due so their kids can eat. Or being one missed paycheck away from their family being homeless.
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
...lots go without healthcare
...parents have to decide if it really warrants a Dr visit because it might very well bankrupt them
We have the ACA now. Was sold to us as the solution to health care for all. And then, of course, you have Medicaid and for some special cases under 65 Medicare. Emergency rooms are forbidden from turning away people. Although I know it must happen, I am at a loss as to how people can be without some sort of insurance. And that is what we are talking about, right, not access to health care? I am the primary care giver for my sister in law who has been disabled and not employed for many years. I understand gaps in coverage, limited choice, and costs exceeding policy limits, but in this day and age it is hard to imagine very many folks having a serious injury or illness and not going to a doc for fear of the costs.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
I’m not trying to paint the mil family life as a paradise (although I used paradise upthread) but I am saying that if you want to know what it feels like to live in a socialist society, join the military. Then ask your kids.

I still remember stepping on a nail and seeing the corpsman. He was a FMF dude, tattooed up, and told me it was just like treating a bullet wound. That’s powerful mojo for an 8 year old.

It was also a classed society. I went to the Chiefs club pool at NAS Oceana. I didn’t go to the Officer’s Club unless I went as a guest. I coveted their high dive.

We ate at the Chief’s Club on payday, which used to be on the backside of Oceana over where the skeet shooting ranges are and where it looks like camper and boat storage is now. I used to sneak over from there towards the runway (no fence) to watch jets takeoff and land, and must have got spotted by the tower one time...they sent out a truck. Sat there and watched jets with the guy, I’m guessing I was his excuse to stay away from the chief.

It’s less so now than when I was a mil brat during the full-on Cold War. Draft was going on too. Now it’s much more like a job, even in moving from defined benefits to contributions, and of course all volunteer.

While on shore duty at NAS Anacostia, my dad worked a second night/weekend job to make ends meet.

Threadjack and rambling and probably run-on sentences alert: damn dude, your Navy sounds fantastic and sadly, wildly different from the one I've gotten to be a part of. The closest I've had to an O-Club was the I-Bar (still very cool) and "Jack's Aces," which is effectively a broom closet turned into a pseudo-all-hands-bar at Whiting Field. Maybe I missed it in Mayport, Norfolk, Corpus, and Japan, but I've never seen one at those location, and the one in Pensacola has effectively turned into an all hands, overpriced, corporate sandwich shop with extremely limited hours. I've never been to a classed pool (not saying I want to, but regular access to a pool with hours that are past my working hours and open on weekends would be nice on every base - again, to recap: Corpus none that I was aware of, Whiting my first lap there was closed, second time there was closed for half my time and eventually opened during generally normal working hours, Japan I'll blame COVID but the pools were generally pretty good, just loaded with ridiculous rules), and here in Norfolk, there's currently one pool, lap swim only, with hours pretty reflective of the work day with no weekends... let alone a high dive or any diving board - my two most recent pools won't even let me jump off the swimmers' blocks. And... at this point, I'd be happy to have Medical just work past 1400 (I seriously do not understand what they do and hope this is specific to my unit, but my last 3 commands, I feel like medical availablility is getting worse and worse (sidebar: when I was leaving the HTs, they were cutting the flight docs down to 1 for the entire TRAWING, I hope that never went through) or be able to schedule a dental appointment (in fairness, the dental thing is recent, and partially due to COVID with everyone flooding them, but for real, you won't book out more than 60 days? Your best advice to me is to come early and hope someone doesn't show up?). /End Rant... for now. No wonder I don't see the Military as a "socialist paradise." :rolleyes:

I don’t know where you grew up but you do realize that a lot of kids go without food, lots go without healthcare, an a ton of people go without access to a pool.

He said most. That remains true today. Yes, there are some kids who grow up hungry and some that don't get to visit pools or have any leisure or pleasure activity time, but in the U.S., most both get food and leisure time.

With that said, I think the below is a bit narrow-minded or sarcastic, or both and realize there are many who do struggle...

We have the ACA now. Was sold to us as the solution to health care for all. And then, of course, you have Medicaid and for some special cases under 65 Medicare. Emergency rooms are forbidden from turning away people. Although I know it must happen, I am at a loss as to how people can be without some sort of insurance. And that is what we are talking about, right, not access to health care? I am the primary care giver for my sister in law who has been disabled and not employed for many years. I understand gaps in coverage, limited choice, and costs exceeding policy limits, but in this day and age it is hard to imagine very many folks having a serious injury or illness and not going to a doc for fear of the costs.
 

Mirage

Well-Known Member
pilot
Are you joking? Most of the kids I grew up with absolutely did not have those benefits.

Try growing up and suffering an injury and your parents have to decide if it really warrants a Dr visit because it might very well bankrupt them if they get medical bills. Or deciding which bill they can let go past due so their kids can eat. Or being one missed paycheck away from their family being homeless.
I grew up very poor to very hard working parents. I know all the struggles you're talking about. But I didn't when I was a kid. When I turned 16 I got a job and paid for many of my own meals and all of my "wants" until the Navy started paying for my college and food. Before I was 16, my parents were barely making ends meet but I, as the kid, never had to worry about it. Most kids in America don't. For most kids here, their needs are provided for.

My point is not that everyone has it easy here. My point is that military members do not live in a "socialist paradise".
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
The closest I've had to an O-Club was the I-Bar (still very cool) and "Jack's Aces," which is effectively a broom closet turned into a pseudo-all-hands-bar at Whiting Field.
Ahhh, sad.

At Oceana the CPO Club was next to the Acey- Deucy Club, which was just for PO1s and PO2s. Because they had to have a place to hang too. The O Club on a Friday night...all single women were “guests of the base CO”. Full rival to Miramar.

NAS Norfolk had a decent happy hour on Fridays. If you were taking off to the East, you could delay your climb a wee bit and maybe turn out to the north a little early and overfly the bubbas drinking outside. Late 80s.

My evac ops was the Cuban Missile Crisis. Dad stationed in Gitmo, and they drove trucks up and down the street in base housing telling all of us we had a couple of hours to pack a bag and be out front. Ended up on some Navy transport ship with all the wives and kids not even knowing where it was bound (Norfolk it turned out). My first time haze grey and underway.

Edit: the internet is amazing. My mom must have received this...

“YOU MAY NOT TAKE PETS WITH YOU. Leave house keys on table in the living room. DO NOT PROCEED BY CAR. Do not ask questions or request exemptions. The evacuation will be by ship. PUT THIS IN YOUR PURSE. DO NOT LEAVE IT LYING AROUND THE HOUSE OR YARD.”

— Guantánamo Bay Evacuation Order, Oct. 22, 1962
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
With that said, I think the below is a bit narrow-minded or sarcastic, or both and realize there are many who do struggle...
Sarcastic and not narrow minded. Of course people struggle and I have a special appreciation for it. That is my sister in law's gift to me. My question re health care (insurance) was serious though. Really, you have a low paying job the ACA is there. You don't sign up, your fault, and I resent having to pay for your medical bills by other means passed on to tax payers. Your income very low or you are indigent, you have Medicaid. There may be some exceptions to that scheme, but it is not common. Most all folks without insurance are being irresponsible. I know people just like that, including some kin. Employed without workplace benefits, they simply do not take advantage of other options. If I am way off base, please let me know. I have been in the system aiding my sister in law for years. She is AFU. Takes over $1000 of meds a month, has had two surgeries on her finger, one on a shoulder, broken arm, eye surgery, tons of dental work including surgery, in hospitals for mental health, and that is off the top of my head for the last 2-3 years. All that on Medicare including a couple supplementals she pays extra for. Oh, and section 8 housing subsidies. She hasn't worked in two decades. You are damned right it is hard. But it is rare people go hungry for any amount of time or without getting health care unless they have truly fallen through the cracks ( curable with effort and attention by the right people/programs) or are unable to care for themselves. I have strong feelings about mental health care in America. Some folks do need to be forcibly cared for. But mostly I see people simply not taking advantage of what is out there, even if it is the bare safety net.

Oh, and my favorite WTF. We actually have people that do have the ACA coverage, and still just roll into the ER for strep throat or sore back instead of going to a primary care doc. They are incredulous when told their insurance will not pay for the ER or they have a large copay. Some Americans are not looking to be a part of the solution. They think they deserve better than what America's tax payers are doing for them.
 

nodropinufaka

Well-Known Member
The ACA is a step in the right direction in my opinion. And you’re right. Now you’re able to get insurance and should have it.

But when I was growing up I know very well how it is to need braces and dental work and my parents not able too because they simply couldn’t afford it.

Also to whomever was saying they never been to a good o club gotta hit an airwing fallon at some point…
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor
Ahhh, sad.

At Oceana the CPO Club was next to the Acey- Deucy Club, which was just for PO1s and PO2s. Because they had to have a place to hang too. The O Club on a Friday night...all single women were “guests of the base CO”. Full rival to Miramar.

NAS Norfolk had a decent happy hour on Fridays. If you were taking off to the East, you could delay your climb a wee bit and maybe turn out to the north a little early and overfly the bubbas drinking outside. Late 80s.

My evac ops was the Cuban Missile Crisis. Dad stationed in Gitmo, and they drove trucks up and down the street in base housing telling all of us we had a couple of hours to pack a bag and be out front. Ended up on some Navy transport ship with all the wives and kids not even knowing where it was bound (Norfolk it turned out). My first time haze grey and underway.

Edit: the internet is amazing. My mom must have received this...

“YOU MAY NOT TAKE PETS WITH YOU. Leave house keys on table in the living room. DO NOT PROCEED BY CAR. Do not ask questions or request exemptions. The evacuation will be by ship. PUT THIS IN YOUR PURSE. DO NOT LEAVE IT LYING AROUND THE HOUSE OR YARD.”

— Guantánamo Bay Evacuation Order, Oct. 22, 1962

Sadly, I don't think we'll ever see the MWR lifestyle you describe again. I also question if we could pull off a sudden evac of one of our overseas bases like that as well.
 
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