DoD hiring freeze

[Spekkio]

With access to abortions decreasing, these problems should be increasing. More single parent kids in poverty.

Good point there.

Overturning Roe is a Poverty Issue

www.law.georgetown.edu

 

[Flash]

As for special education... principals often have their hands full with every Tom and Jane who wants their child classified as special ed the moment they have a modicum of academic or behavioral challenges. So much so that it created military recruiting shortfalls until we changed the rules regarding past mental disorder diagnoses.

Glad to see you blithely dismiss the real challenges parents and students face across this country trying to get their kids educated properly. Even in the relatively 'short' time from when I used to be a student things have improved immeasurable from where they used to be, with 'special' kids farmed out to special classes or school, or at worst just ignored. And this was just a generation ago, when my mom had to fight hard for years to get my sibling some attention for a learning disability. Now a tax lawyer, so it paid off, but for many of his peers there wasn't someone in their corner fighting so hard. With the rules and support in place nowadays it is much better.

Yeah, like I said... everyone has converged on canned answers that don't hold up to scrutiny now that immigration patterns have caused a demographic shift in the U.S.

A thorough review of the mountain of studies on the issue has led you to that conclusion?

How do you explain that, when you control for household income and parental educational attainment, that a black family living in America for generations will statistically have worse educational and economic outcomes than a latino, let alone Asian, immigrant family whose parents speak English as a second language (or not at all)? How do you explain that Asian families do better than white Americans?

Who woulda figured that centuries of systemic racism would have an impact?

 

[Spekkio]

I'm not discounting people's educational needs, simply pointing out that there is a severe propensity to misdiagnose mental disorders in young children. My cohort of parents, usually moms, often view this as a way to give their children an advantage instead of telling them to work harder.

As for the rest of your response - way to dodge the question. You mean Americans were only racist against black people, never Irish, Italian, Jewish, Chinese, Japanese, or Hispanic people? Racism doesn't tell the whole story here.

I thought you said there was a lot of ink spilled on it?

 

[Flash]

I'm not discounting people's educational needs, simply pointing out that there is a severe propensity to misdiagnose mental disorders in young children. My cohort of parents, usually moms, often view this as a way to give their children an advantage instead of telling them to work harder.

Great, you know some shitty people! That doesn't make the more recent laws and rules with respect to special education a mistake or wrong.

As for the rest of your response - way to dodge the question. You mean Americans were only racist against black people, never Irish, Italian, Jewish, Chinese, Japanese, or Hispanic people?

How many of them were enslaved as a people? Counted as 3/5ths of a person but couldn't vote, until the last 60 or so years? Suffered under Jim Crow for over 100 years after being freed as slaves? No other ethnic or racial group in this country has suffered so much through legal discrimination, that existed on the books for almost 400 years, than black Americans.

To compare the rest, especially Irish and Italians, to what black Americans have experienced before this country was even founded is absurd. You're smarter than that.

I thought you said there was a lot of ink spilled on it?

There is, you can do your own research.

 

[Spekkio]

Great, you know some shitty people! That doesn't make the more recent laws and rules with respect to special education a mistake or wrong.

I linked an actual report of over-diagnosis of ADHD. Another report is upwards of 20% of autism diagnosis are faulted. That is a huge misdiagnosis rate, enough to make most other doctors lose their licenses. Has nothing to do with the people I know, although it anecdotally confirms the broader data.

How many of them were enslaved as a people? Counted as 3/5ths of a person but couldn't vote, until the last 60 or so years? Suffered under Jim Crow for over 100 years after being freed as slaves? No other ethnic or racial group in this country has suffered so much through legal discrimination, that existed on the books for almost 400 years, than black Americans.

To compare the rest, especially Irish and Italians, to what black Americans have experienced before this country was even founded is absurd. You're smarter than that.

I can give you the Irish for a dollar, but the Italian immigrant wave occurred after slavery had ended. And are you contesting that Asian and hispanic Americans don't deal with racism in 2025? Are you aware of the arguments made in Fair Admissions v. Harvard?

There is, you can do your own research.

The ink spilled on it points to the same canned answer you're trying to give - some combination of racism / slavery / economics. It doesn't hold water when you control for these factors. Nor does it explain disparate outcomes by race / ethnicity. The lumping of every non-white demographic under 'people of color' represents religious adherence to this explanation.

Here's a NY Times piece arguing that hispanic Immigrants are the 21st century version of Italian immigrants.

One explanation could be @robav8r's point that certain demographics are more likely to have fatherless households. And then someone can dive into the socio-economic root causes of that phenomenon. But we'll never know, because such a study will never get funding in academia. The problem is economic disadvantage and institutional racism, and that's that.

 

[Flash]

I linked an actual report of over-diagnosis of ADHD. Another report is upwards of 20% of autism diagnosis are faulted. That is a huge misdiagnosis rate, enough to make most other doctors lose their licenses. Has nothing to do with the people I know, although it anecdotally confirms the broader data.

Still doesn't make the current laws and rules for special education bad, they are a massive improvement of what I saw first-hand growing up.

I can give you the Irish for a dollar, but the Italian immigrant wave occurred after slavery had ended. And are you contesting that Asian and hispanic Americans don't deal with racism in 2025? Are you aware of the arguments made in Fair Admissions v. Harvard?

Did I say that? No, not even close. As for what happened after slavery, this happened after slavery thousands of times.

Did it happen anywhere near as much to any other ethnic racial or ethnic group in this country? Nope. And that is just among the most violent of acts of racial discrimination. Jim Crow laws, redlining, banking discrimination....the list goes on and on.

The ink spilled on it points to the same canned answer you're trying to give - some combination of racism / slavery / economics. It doesn't hold water when you control for these factors. Nor does it explain disparate outcomes by race / ethnicity. The lumping of every non-white demographic under 'people of color' represents religious adherence to this explanation.

Maybe they are on to something?

One explanation could be @robav8r's point that certain demographics are more likely to have fatherless households. And then someone can dive into the socio-economic root causes of that phenomenon. But we'll never know, because such a study will never get funding in academia. The problem is economic disadvantage and institutional racism, and that's that.

Alas, if only some brave researcher/school/institute/foundation would be brave enough to do such a study?!

 

[wink]

Interesting discussion. I live in a deep red state that just passed a school voucher program. A lot of rural GOP districts were not happy. There was big money that came in to support the effort.

A lot of people are pissed that a lot of this money will go to subsidize upper middle-class suburban families already sending their kids to private schools...to the detriment of kids in the sticks.

It all sounds good on paper, but the implementation might be rough. Plus, there aren't really great metrics to back it up AFAIK.

A lot of people are pissed that a lot of this money will go to subsidize upper middle-class suburban families already sending their kids to private schools...to the detriment of kids in the sticks.

Vouchers also go to families who currently can't afford private schools and are in under performing public schools. No vouchers means the more wealthy families continue to send kids to private schools (unsubsidized) and poorer kids have less of an opportunity to go to the same schools as the more wealthy attend because they need the subsidy.

Voucher programs can be made more equitable, such as means testing. It is worth noting that most voucher programs are limited to approximately the amount of money that would have been spent on that student in the public school system., so there is no direct detriment to the poorer kids.

While we're talking fairness in and subsidies in funding education, consider the childless property owners that pay property taxes into the school system. Many Americans approaching or retirement age or retired live in homes that produce a significant amount of property tax that goes to schools, yet they send no one to school. Should their property taxes be considered a subsidy to the education of families with multiple children and paying less in property taxes?

Yup, it is a complex highly debatable issue.

 

[squorch2]

Vouchers also go to families who currently can't afford private schools and are in under performing public schools. No vouchers means the more wealthy families continue to send kids to private schools (unsubsidized) and poorer kids have less of an opportunity to go to the same schools as the more wealthy attend because they need the subsidy.

Voucher programs can be made more equitable, such as means testing. It is worth noting that most voucher programs are limited to approximately the amount of money that would have been spent on that student in the public school system., so there is no direct detriment to the poorer kids.

While we're talking fairness in and subsidies in funding education, consider the childless property owners that pay property taxes into the school system. Many Americans approaching or retirement age or retired live in homes that produce a significant amount of property tax that goes to schools, yet they send no one to school. Should their property taxes be considered a subsidy to the education of families with multiple children and paying less in property taxes?

Yup, it is a complex highly debatable issue.

It's very simple.

"Do you think educating the body politic is a good idea?"

If yes, then you support public education.

If not, then you don't.

Public education, like taxes, are the price of admission to a modern, functioning society.

 

[taxi1]

Along the same rambling lines here, I saw where Cumberland, MD is offering $20K to anyone who wants to move there, with the target demographic being people who can work remotely. Other places too. Much of the country is actually losing population.

There's an opportunity in the federal workforce to say that all remote workers have to return to the office unless you live in a rural setting, maybe with some other incentives tossed in. Help move the money out from the cities to the rural.

 

[Spekkio]

Vouchers also go to families who currently can't afford private schools and are in under performing public schools. No vouchers means the more wealthy families continue to send kids to private schools (unsubsidized) and poorer kids have less of an opportunity to go to the same schools as the more wealthy attend because they need the subsidy.

Voucher programs can be made more equitable, such as means testing. It is worth noting that most voucher programs are limited to approximately the amount of money that would have been spent on that student in the public school system., so there is no direct detriment to the poorer kids.

While we're talking fairness in and subsidies in funding education, consider the childless property owners that pay property taxes into the school system. Many Americans approaching or retirement age or retired live in homes that produce a significant amount of property tax that goes to schools, yet they send no one to school. Should their property taxes be considered a subsidy to the education of families with multiple children and paying less in property taxes?

Yup, it is a complex highly debatable issue.

Vouchers siphon money away from the public education system and invariably create a two-tiered education system where the 'good' schools are private education and the 'bad' schools are public education.

How vouchers harm public schools: Calculating the cost of voucher programs to public school districts

Overview What this report is about Voucher programs for schools are rapidly expanding across the country. Under these programs, public budgets provide funding to parents to either send their children to private school or homeschool them. These programs’ growing popularity raises the question of...

www.epi.org

As for the cranky old couple - this is an example of 'pay it forward.' They attended a public school system, their children attended a public school system, and their grandchildren attended a public school system.

Does granny like the fact that she wasn't tied to a cross and thrown into a lake because she can read and do arithmetic? Does she like the fact that her high cholesterol isn't being treated with leeches and bloodletting? Then she needs to stfu and pay her property taxes.

 

[Griz882]

Public education, like taxes, are the price of admission to a modern, functioning society.

I wholeheartedly agree with one caveat - public education currently has an “identity crisis.” I graduated from high school nearly 40 years ago and in that time the changes have been pronounced. Indeed, even in the 12 year difference between my son’s education shows a changed focus. First I would note that what we used to nobly call “industrial arts” (ok…shop) is almost entirely gone, or at the very least voluntary. Sure, you can (and should) learn some basic electrical, wood working, and plumbing skills, but the value was in mixing college bound students with those who were not. It exposed up to the kids who were in FFA and exposed them to us. For me it was required from 7th grade through 9th grade, for my oldest son it was optional, and for my youngest shop was taught at an entirely different school.

That is just one small and easy to fix issue, but I think there is too much focus on college prep combined, oddly enough, with too little focus on GSTEM (and I assume coding or computer science). Those who have observed that there are rich schools and poor schools are correct. While it would never happen, it would be nice to see local school taxes go to a single state account that is enhanced with federal dollars to provide an equal $ amount for each student. This would level teachers pay, ensure a consolidated curriculum, and I imagine, improve outcomes.

 

[Spekkio]

As for what happened after slavery, this happened after slavery thousands of times.

Today, black Americans living in the old South, on average, are more wealthy than black Americans living in the north and west, which had no Jim Crow laws or lynchings.

Keep going with the tropes that don't explain the empirical data and trying to make me feel bad about shit that happened when my grandparents were in diapers.

 

[Spekkio]

I wholeheartedly agree with one caveat - public education currently has an “identity crisis.” I graduated from high school nearly 40 years ago and in that time the changes have been pronounced. Indeed, even in the 12 year difference between my son’s education shows a changed focus. First I would note that what we used to nobly call “industrial arts” (ok…shop) is almost entirely gone, or at the very least voluntary. Sure, you can (and should) learn some basic electrical, wood working, and plumbing skills, but the value was in mixing college bound students with those who were not. It exposed up to the kids who were in FFA and exposed them to us. For me it was required from 7th grade through 9th grade, for my oldest son it was optional, and for my youngest shop was taught at an entirely different school.

A side effect of NCLB and ESSA is that classes that weren't tested went by the wayside. They were viewed in many states as a distraction toward obtaining funding. Surprisingly, CA is a huge offender of this despite being a 'blue' state, but that's also because Prop 13 wreaks havoc on the state's education system among other things.

That is just one small and easy to fix issue, but I think there is too much focus on college prep combined, oddly enough, with too little focus on GSTEM (and I assume coding or computer science). Those who have observed that there are rich schools and poor schools are correct. While it would never happen, it would be nice to see local school taxes go to a single state account that is enhanced with federal dollars to provide an equal $ amount for each student. This would level teachers pay, ensure a consolidated curriculum, and I imagine, improve outcomes.

Except most parents don't want equal outcomes. They want their children to have a leg up into getting into the best universities and therefore have the best earning potential.

Hell, you see this in youth sports where parents on a large scale are signing their kids up to year-round clinics and practices to try to make little Johnny into a pro athlete at 7 years old.

Also, the trades shot themselves in the feet with union nepotism. Good luck getting an apprenticeship.

 

[hookskip]

While we're talking fairness in and subsidies in funding education, consider the childless property owners that pay property taxes into the school system. Many Americans approaching or retirement age or retired live in homes that produce a significant amount of property tax that goes to schools, yet they send no one to school. Should their property taxes be considered a subsidy to the education of families with multiple children and paying less in property taxes?

A better educated youth get higher paying jobs, which feed more revenue into Social Security and Medicare.

 

[taxi1]

A better educated youth get higher paying jobs, which feed more revenue into Social Security and Medicare.

Penn State or the State Pen, as we say around here.