invertedflyer
500 ft. from said obstacle
Theres Something About Mary... seen it, classic. 
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Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects
- Thread starter futrMarineBlueAngel
- Start date
Sub King
Member
I realize that this is probably over my head right now, but I wanted to ask a question about the previous thread devoted to this BFM vid? In the previous thread A4's mentioned using the vertical and to maintain energy levels, and I was wondering what that means? Is that referring to pulling less G's somehow and thereby reducing one's physical exertion during the fight? Maybe a conservation of energy as in TE=PE+KE??
Hopefully that's not a too in depth question for my level of knowledge right now, but I figured I'd ask.
Hopefully that's not a too in depth question for my level of knowledge right now, but I figured I'd ask.
A moving object has energy, and in the case of an aircraft, with a reduction in airspeed you lose a similar amount of energy (according to the KE portion of your equation). Also, you theoretically lose PE as you descend in altitude. This is the energy that has been mentioned....beyond that, I will defer to someone qualified to answer the rest of your question.
You boys crack me up ... formulas .... equations ... KE portions ....
... to keep it simple for broken down ol' Adversary who was born as an Attack Bubba, not a pretty-face fighter puke, and never had any real skoolin':The ACM rules of survival, so even I can unnerstan' 'em :
... altitude is speed, speed is life ... beware the Hun in the Sun ... or the wily bogey in the sun, if you prefer .... see the other guy first ... know YOUR airplane .... fight YOUR fight (NOT the other guy's) .... and don't EVER try to turn with an A-4.
Oh, yeah ... and check "6" ... ALWAYS ... whether you are at 30,000' or on terra firma.
invertedflyer
500 ft. from said obstacle
I'm probably not the best individual to answer your question. But everything is a tradeoff in a dogfight IMHO. Speed is life, and in this case so is altitude. Had he used the vertical more, he could have had the altitude advantage (IMO it seemed he held the altitude [and attitude] advantage to some extent throughout)... and with it the ability to dive upon his foe and gain speed from an advantageous position above him. This is why he executed a high yo-yo at the beginning of the fight... he gained altitude, gained angles, and could keep his knots up from above. Essentially what JAC said Someone else probably has a better way of putting it.
Someone else probably has a better way of putting it.
invertedflyer
500 ft. from said obstacle
EDIT! ok so A4s beat me to it with a much better explanation...
I'm probably not the best individual to answer your question. But everything is tradeoff in a dogfight IMHO. Speed is life, and in this case so is altitude. Had he used the vertical more, he could have had the altitude advantage (IMO it seemed he held the altitude [and attitude] advantage to some extent throughout)... and with it the ability to dive upon his foe and gain speed from an advantageous position above him. This is why he executed a high yo-yo at the beginning of the fight... he gained altitude, and still kept is knots up. Essentially what JAC said
This is just not a good idea...
invertedflyer
500 ft. from said obstacle
newbie's fatal attempt at explaining what has already been explained better (braces for impact)
(braces for impact)You boys crack me up ... formulas .... equations ... KE portions ....
The ACM rules of survival, so even I can unnerstan' 'em :
... altitude is speed, speed is life ... beware the Hun in the Sun ... or the wily bogey in the sun, if you prefer .... see the other guy first ... know YOUR airplane .... fight YOUR fight (NOT the other guy's) .... and don't EVER try to turn with an A-4.
Oh, yeah ... and check "6" ... ALWAYS ... whether you are at 30,000' or on terra firma.
Reminded me of this.
'He used to tell the story of his brief but memorable Pensacola graduation ceremony during the hurry-up days of WW2. The Admiral, with better things to do, made his speech short and to the point. "Gentlemen, I want you to remember three things. Keep your airspeed up, keep your airspeed up, keep your gawdamn airspeed up."'
More ACM rules:
1) If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
2) If you're not turning with your canopy bow on the bogey, you're probably arcing
3) the same rules for a knife fight in a phone booth apply
1) If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
2) If you're not turning with your canopy bow on the bogey, you're probably arcing
3) the same rules for a knife fight in a phone booth apply
I heartily agree with the succinct Admiral...as can be seen in the page frame above left, under Catmando....
But then not so succinctly, I also offer the following:
Although extremely complex, air combat maneuvering (ACM) and air-to-air combat nevertheless must always rely upon the fewest and most simplistic of rules …just as those ones A4’s and Intruder Driver have correctly put forth.
Certainly in the heat of battle, one’s IQ diminishes rapidly.
Therefore, most all the previously learned intricacies and physics of air combat are instantly forgotten and of no use. What little remains beyond a few simple axioms, is the innate aggressiveness and athletic skill – both natural and learned – of the true fighter pilot. Thus the understanding of the physics of any maneuver is far less important than the skill gained from repeated practice, practice, practice; along with realistic experience, and ACM currency - and all these things well above and beyond the fundamental, requisite natural ability. All this eventually and hopefully makes the variety of complex maneuvers purely natural, unthinking and instinctive.... and thus, successful.
Probably the best technical book on the subject was written by Bob Shaw; “Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering” available from the Naval Institute, [edit: and from Amazon along with many reviews] and in many libraries. [Although I knew Bob and once peeked at his manuscript, I never actually read the book… just too complex for me!
]
And to mix famous, historical quotes, "Anything else is rubbish ." Check 6.
New Episode of Dogfights Coming up Next on the History Channel
All new episode tonight on the history channel at 10:00 EST.
Mig-17s against the Mirage III.
I'll be tuning in. Great show.
All new episode tonight on the history channel at 10:00 EST.
Mig-17s against the Mirage III.
I'll be tuning in. Great show.
Thanks for the heads up bro, got it on right now.
Likewise. Not bad. Thanks for heads-up!
When are the gunna do those "Line of Death" MiGs that thought it would be a good idea to piss off a pair of Tomcats? I have heard the recordings from one of them and always wanted to see it rendered out with that fancy CGI they do.