Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects

[stalk]

...I consider it a rare privilege to have met and sat and talked with both CAPT Ault and the CNO, Admiral Moorer, who gave him the mandate to fix the problems besetting the fighter community. I daresay their impact is felt even today.

IMO these vignettes of our Naval Aviation heritage should be included in API. Stories like this really highlight a military; get the job done, mentality and would be a first-rate motivator. Simply put, the boss identifies a problem, assigns a "tip of the spear" war-fighter leader to ascertain and organize solutions and then lets the JO's refine and execute the fix. That process is successfully repeated on a less grand scale daily.

I wasn't fortunate enough to meet Mumbles granddad or ADM Moorer. However, like many here, I have met and worked with some legendary officers that had a lasting impact on improving the lethality, survivability and quality of life in Naval Aviation. Though he won't tell you so, Hey Joe is one of them....great post!

 

[TheBubba]

Joe,

Thanks for the history lesson. +1

-Bubba

 

[FlyinSpy]

Mumbles - nice gene pool to climb out of!

HJ or any other Old School big brains out there - in the past I've tried to find a copy of the actual Ault report, and failed. I've tried open source as well as the classified side. Anyone have a pointer to the location of the real deal, hard copy or electronic? Free beer to the first one to come up with a link!

-Milhouse

 

[Catmando]

Mumbles - nice gene pool to climb out of!
... Anyone have a pointer to the location of the real deal, hard copy or electronic? Free beer to the first one to come up with a link!

-Milhouse

Try this at #2:
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org4-25.htm
(But it is a large pdf on a very slow server.)

Break..

HJs's excellent summary says it!

I never had the honor to meet the man. But like every fighter pilot of the day and through many later years, I knew well the Ault Report. And we all repeated his name reverently, as we enjoyed the many great changes he wrought. I can think of no one individual or document that had such a profound, positive, and lasting impact upon Naval Aviation.

 

[A4sForever]

I think this is what you're lookin' for ... the actual title was:

REPORT OF THE AIR-TO-AIR MISSILE SYSTEM CAPABILITY REVIEW

You might also try this:

NAVAL AVIATION RESEARCH AND COLLECTIONS

 

[A4sForever]

...

...

 

[Mumbles]

Thank you all for your kind words...
He had quite a career. Funny that he was never a straight up VF pilot..He started off in Helldivers, then flew AJ Savages in the first USN VC nuke squadron, and then was a SPAD Skipper. I know he got qualled in A4s and F8s as CAG-10 on Shangri-La. He passed two years ago and had burial at sea aboard the TR off the NC Capes. I've been told that there's a building named in his honor at NSAWC. I believe my Dad sent alot of plaques and pics from Pop's I Love Me wall in Arlington, Va out to Fallon.

 

[HeyJoe]

Mumbles - nice gene pool to climb out of!

HJ or any other Old School big brains out there - in the past I've tried to find a copy of the actual Ault report, and failed. I've tried open source as well as the classified side. Anyone have a pointer to the location of the real deal, hard copy or electronic? Free beer to the first one to come up with a link!

-Milhouse

I had a copy when I was the AAM RO along with AIM/ACEVAL reports. I dutifully left them in my safe awaiting declassification. After 9/11, everything in that section of N88 was smoke-checked and discarded. Glad to see Navy and DTIC saw fit to get it into Public Domain. Great find, bruddah!

 

[FlyinSpy]

Catmando - great find; if our paths cross, the beer's on me!

A4s - likewise on the find. If our paths cross, you'll likely already be pickled anyway, and I will convince you to buy the fine Anejo...

 

[mmx1]

AF Times - History Declassified - profiles Steve Davies' book on Constant Peg

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/01/airforce_redeagles_intro_010409/

 

[Catmando]

Not having read the book, I can't comment on its value.

But I can tell you there have been a number of earlier books outlining the other, now declassifed projects that preceded "Constant Peg" by many years. They were about the essential and effective, Vietnam and Cold War training that the AF missed out on for years, to their regret.

The Navy (and Marines) of that earlier period (in conjunction with a 'national agency') were far in advance of the Air Force in this type of training. It was all a result of the Ault Report leading to the establishment of TOPGUN, along with our vastly improved fighter tactics and unprecedented training. (Other than that, I can't talk .)

 

[HeyJoe]

Not having read the book, I can't comment on its value.

But I can tell you there have been a number of earlier books outlining the other, now declassifed projects that preceded "Constant Peg" by many years. They were about the essential and effective, Vietnam and Cold War training that the AF missed out on for years, to their regret.

The Navy (and Marines) of that earlier period (in conjunction with a 'national agency') were far in advance of the Air Force in this type of training. It was all a result of the Ault Report leading to the establishment of TOPGUN, along with our vastly improved fighter tactics and unprecedented training. (Other than that, I can't talk .)

Scream of Eagles gives a firsthand perspective into that period.

Wilcox covers the entire fighter community culture in a Right Stuff type narrative

 

[yak52driver]

ACM Question

On the DVD 'Speed and Angels' the statement "Trigger down, snap" is made. I've read Commander Shaw's book 'Fighter Combat' and he discusses the snapshot air-to-air gun firing situation. Is that what 'trigger down, snap' is referring to?

I've searched for the answer to this questions several ways but couldn't find it on AW, I apologize if I somehow missed it. Thanks for the help!

 

[MAKE VAPES]

For a guns solution, you must solve:

Plane of Motion (you have to get your stream of bullets in the same plane relative to the dude you are shooting).

Range (bullets naturally fall, slow down, tumble, take time to get there etc... leads us to the next one)

Lead(Trigger squeeze) (M61 fires ~8000 rounds per minute, you don't carry 8000 rounds, variable burst limiter keeps you from hozing them all off at once. Need to match trigger squeeze to estimated range or your stream of bbs will fly infront of him or behind him. (if you have a radar lock on the dude, computer solves it all for you, put the death dot on and pull trigger).

Guns envelope has various sections depending on where you are from him.. tracking (rear aspect), raking (old term... higher aspect), and snap (high aspect).

Sooooo when someone says... trigger down, they are squeezing the trigger, bullets are spraying (or simulated), tape is marked for shot validation later in debrief. "Snap" implies that the pipper touched the bad guy airplane... if it doesn't touch, you might say "miss hi" or "miss lo"..
Top Gun wienisses monkey with the terminology etc. for fitness report bullets, but that is the basics.

Im sure the TRACOM ACM FTI is somewhere on line.

 

[nittany03]

I'm sure the TRACOM ACM FTI is somewhere on line.

T-45 ACM FTI

More than you ever wanted to know about BFM. (OP, that is, not MAKE_VAPES )