Now you sound like my Mother -- you're just tryin' to make me like you.Jesus, a chip on the other shoulder and you could be a well balanced individual
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Fight's On! The origins of TOPGUN and dogfights back in the day/future prospects
- Thread starter futrMarineBlueAngel
- Start date
Pretty funny how all of the examples are cut and paste from another link on the original page...
One not so slight problemo old chap. Your examples are all movies based on works of fiction that have disclaimers about resemblance to real persons, etc. They are not documentaries nor do they purport to be historically accurate other than placement in a historical slice of history. They are not used as references to creating future works of history or accurate accounts.
Conversely, the Telegraph and especially the book it reported on by Rowland White are purported to be well researched pieces of history suitable for referencing in articles, papers or other books. To my mnd it is important to get the record straight or falsehoods end up being perpetuated especially on the InterNet (ie Urban Legends).
Show me a book or books saying US captured U-571 or were the Great Escapees or Steven Ambrose claiming Easy Company fought someone that actually faced Brits. That would be apples to apples comparison, not what you have offered up.
Greenhorn1
New Member
Fair point, well made !
All I'm trying to say is that one minor paper in the UK may or may not have printed misleading or incorrect info on an icon of the US military and everybobdy gets their knickers in a twist. Whereas the Brits have been putting up with a distorted view of history from the US for years and nobody over here gives a damn.
Fair point, well made !
All I'm trying to say is that one minor paper in the UK may or may not have printed misleading or incorrect info on an icon of the US military and everybobdy gets their knickers in a twist. Whereas the Brits have been putting up with a distorted view of history from the US for years and nobody over here gives a damn.
So in other words, WE WIN!...Questions??????????
Blimey! Grind that ol' axe away, Guvnah!Fair point, well made !
..... Whereas the Brits have been putting up with a distorted view of history from the US for years and nobody over here gives a damn.
A British guy teaching TOPGUN guys to write down notes on their kneepad during a flight?
Genius! Who'd have thunk it!
Am I historically illiterate, or was there a war the British fought in the '60s with a lot of air-to-air combat that I'm forgetting?
Genius! Who'd have thunk it!
Am I historically illiterate, or was there a war the British fought in the '60s with a lot of air-to-air combat that I'm forgetting?
I don't remember anyone at Miramar in the early '70s taking about the Brits and how much they had contributed. Going through the F-4 RAG (VF-121) in mid-'72, there were two RN Brits there, one pilot and one RIO. They were good... but not "oh-my-god great" as I recall. When I went through Topgun in August of 1973, no one there mentioned any British contributions. There was some talk of the lads from Israel who had come over and done some jaw-dropping stuff with the Phantom in ACM... but no talk of the Brits.
I'm thinking that the interviewer was sucked in by the "the older I get, the better I was" syndrome of the gentlemen he talked to.
I'm thinking that the interviewer was sucked in by the "the older I get, the better I was" syndrome of the gentlemen he talked to.
^ Absolutely correct --- as anyone who's ever attended "the school" would know and attest ...
Anything else is speculation, guesswork, lies, wishful thinking, 'creative' history, and damned lies ...
Anything else is speculation, guesswork, lies, wishful thinking, 'creative' history, and damned lies ...
Dave Frost, one of the TOPGUN instructor legends, was skipper of VF-101 when I went through the first time (and was one of most vocal in calling for return of Hoser). I distinctly remember him recalling the epic fight between him and the Israeli ace they sent over when he was at TOPGUN. He is a matter of fact kinda guy and uber cool so he waan't embellishing his prowess. He simply said the Isreali kept fighting though the soft deck and then the hard deck until they were literally on the real hard deck with neither one getting an advantage over the other.
Old R.O. said:
That thought struck me as well. Might have been a pint or two involved and perhaps he recalled the past over rose colored glasses.
Glad you mentioned Dave Frost. "Frosty" then was a young Lt., but one of the very best – in the air and on the ground. Deep in the midst of major egos and superior pilots, he was a steady, No-BS'er, who let his actions speak for him. And loud they did! Aside from his extraordinary reputation in ACM, he did major grunt work in establishing Top Gun and making it successful.
Although the early cadre of Top Gun instructors were as good if not better as any in the world, I remember them all being quite surprised by the extreme lengths
the Israeli pilots would go, both in training and in combat.
We ALL get "sucked" when we're behind the bearing line on our desired position ...
Good "Hard Saying"!
BTW, do we have a Hard Saying Log thread anywhere around here? Perhaps we need one.
From reading a lot of history books, including British ones, there seems to be a common theme among the Brits that they think they do things just a bit better than the Yanks. I remember distinctly that when things started going south in Iraq in fall 03/spring 04 there was a lot of noise from the Brits that they did things better. With the experience they had gained from Northern Ireland the southern part of Iraq, especially the Basra area, was much more peaceful because they knew how to do counterinsurgency. At least that is what they claimed, telling the press that the Americans could take a few lessons from them.
What really happened was they gradually let local 'militia' groups take over without any checks, and only last year did the central Iraqi government finally gain control over the area. They have been pretty good at counter-insurgency for a very long time but sometimes they get a little big for their britches, or is it bloomers?
Swallowing a little crow
The Brits are valuable allies, and generally good guys too, but they often think of themselves a little too highly.
What really happened was they gradually let local 'militia' groups take over without any checks, and only last year did the central Iraqi government finally gain control over the area. They have been pretty good at counter-insurgency for a very long time but sometimes they get a little big for their britches, or is it bloomers?
Swallowing a little crow
The Brits are valuable allies, and generally good guys too, but they often think of themselves a little too highly.
....the early cadre of Top Gun instructors were as good if not better as any in the world ...... I remember them all being quite surprised by the extreme lengths
ABSOLUTELY ... and absolutely.
I remember querying some Israeli A-4 drivers as to why they were putting 80-90% of their 20-mike-mike ON TARGET >>>>> while we were only getting 40-60 % ????
They countered w/:
"You pull off by the "foul line" on the range .... we don't even start SHOOTING until we pass the foul line".
Hmmmmmmmmm ..... after much mission planning and drinking at the bar .... the next day --- my division crossed the "foul line" ... wanna guess what our % of 20-mike-mike on target was .... ???