Maslow's hierarchy of needs anyone.....anyone?
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Firing at us? Trying to help you?
- Thread starter Road Program
- Start date
That doesn't give people the right to go into a Wal-Mart, steal an arsenal of firearms, and start looting business, houses, and stealing TVs, DVD players, etc. People looting food, water, clothes for their kids, diapers...I can sympathize with that, I would probably be doing the same thing. But what the hell are you going to do with a TV?? Or six pairs of Nikes? Or a Playstation 2? Why the hell do you need to go around shooting at rescue helicopters, sniping at hospital patients, raping teenage girls while their parents are forced to watch. It's ridiculous and these people need to be taken care of, i.e. shoot to kill.
snow85 said:
PSno23 said:
what are you going to do?
sell them for CASH because that is your ONLY way out. that means that you have to sell them to people who have cash ON them, because it's not like people are going to be running to the atm. Nikes? you're going to WEAR them, because chances are-- you don't have shoes, and IF you do, they've been destroyed by the cesspool that you've been walking through, and the constant HEAT and SUN that you've been exposed to for well over a week.
as much as i hate to say this, looting might be the best thing for those houses. this isn't your run-of-the-mill, post-disaster looting. if there is consumable food, it should be eaten so that it doesn't rot. NO ONE is going to get anything back anyway, and if they do, ALL of their possessions will have to be destroyed. the place is a literal toxic cesspool, and after the water is drained, the soil will be contaminated for years and years to come. they can't possibly BUY food or vaccinations, potable water or medication: there is no system in place to handle a cash flow, and all of these items will spoil. if it's the right items, for the right reasons, can you drink your coffee, take a daily multi-vitamin, and condemn them for it?
you have got to be kidding me.
i'm not making excuses for the moral degredation re: rape, nor am i condoning the stealing of weapons. however, shooting at the military, and shooting at people (aka vying for space and care) in hospital beds-- whether or not i think it's the right thing to do, yes, i can absolutely see how it happens. here i sit on the outside, and i can see that.
they're shooting at the military because they don't know what else to do. in their eyes, they can 'threaten' you to save their family. 'if you don't fly down here and pick us up off of our rotting roof, we'll try to make you do it.' that is what they see: if you can force us to take specific action with your weapons, why can we not do the same to you?
many have relatives who need medicine, who need ELECTRICITY to operate their breathing machines and heart/lung pumps. they're desperately trying to save their families the only way that they can possibly understand at the moment.
i don't expect you to be able to understand the total and complete loss that these people have suffered. you're sitting in your air-conditioned room, in front of your TV, with food in your refrigerator, probably no sunburn, with rested feet, with (albeit expensive) gas in your car, that's parked on a street to and from which not only are you allowed to move freely, but is free from obstructions so that you CAN. you're typing these opinions because you CAN.
these people are taking these actions to survive.
snow85 said:
Nope. I don't buy it. I'm thinking hard, but I can't recall any other humanitarian effort where survivors fired on or threatened rescue forces in order to 'coerce' them to help. No SAR manual I've ever used had a chapter on "Guy with an AK aiming at you Signalling Technique". Hey, if I'm wrong, show me an example and I'll submit.
I don't care HOW bad a situation is, NO ONE is going to think "if I shoot at that Blackhawk, he'll come to save my family". Uh uh. These are criminals, pure and simple, capitalizing on a major disaster as much as possible before order is inevitably restored. "Shoot at the Blackhawk, he can't land, I can steal more stuff". That's the thought process.
edit: I'm also curious what the troops are being told in regards to ROE with hostile civilians. I can already see some jackass looter firing at incoming NG soldiers, soldier fires back, and everyone from the family to the ACLU starts calling their lawyers. Hopefully they stick to rubber bullets and tear gas. Of course, I'm sure someone will find a way to sue over that as well.
zab1001 said:
zab,
while i personally would like to see the military fire back, it's not an option, and defeats the humanitarian purpose. you're talking about people who have been without basic necessities for well over a week. Physicians in Houston are having to treat people for severe sunburn-- do you really think that someone who has been out in the sun, heat and humidity, (reaching 97*+), that long has the mental faculties to be thinking clearly? with no food and no water?
and... of course i'll do the research for you... but rescue efforts are impeded all the time by the raging, out-of-control emotion of those being rescued. i'm probably a lot younger than you are, and i know that-- think!
shoot at the blackhawk? so you can steal more stuff? from where? when you're on your roof, in the middle of the ocean, with NOTHING around you, where are you going to steal from? guess what? N.O. is also suffering from 4+ft. TIDES right now. wouldn't you want to get off your roof too?
skidkid said:
Nah. Rename it Sodom, and rename Las Vegas Gomorrah. That's about what both of those places are comparable to. Don't misunderstand me, I'm no Bible-thumper, nor a Christian fundamentalist...in fact, I don't even claim to be a Christian, as I don't attend church or necessarily follow everything in that particular branch of faith, but both of those places are just dens of sin and strife, just like the aforementioned Biblical cities.
You can even see it in the way the two cities are advertised..."What happens in Vegas stays here." Basically an invitation to do ****ed-up ****, word for word. I wouldn't be surprised to see something disastrous, but obviously natural, happen to LV in the next couple of years...just a theory/mental wandering.
PSno23 said:
I concur.
snow85 said:
With all due respect, snow, bull****. There's NO excuse for this. They're doing exactly what they know to do, it's just that what they know to do is the wrong thing. Rational, good-hearted human beings know what's right and wrong, even in the midst of the most hectic, tragic, or dangerous situations. Case in point, soldiers and Marines in Vietnam who refused to execute illegal/immoral orders.
Snow,
You brought up some good insight for the majority of people there. However, you cannot tell me that the 'thugs' causing the major crimes are only doing that out of necessity for survival.
Think like a criminal...knowing that your 'paradise' of unlimited criminal acts will come true after the hurricane. Those 'thugs' made a decision to stay, just to take advantage of the situation. They, the 'thugs', are doing that for survival? I do not think so.
You brought up some good insight for the majority of people there. However, you cannot tell me that the 'thugs' causing the major crimes are only doing that out of necessity for survival.
Think like a criminal...knowing that your 'paradise' of unlimited criminal acts will come true after the hurricane. Those 'thugs' made a decision to stay, just to take advantage of the situation. They, the 'thugs', are doing that for survival? I do not think so.
snow85 said:
Just to clarify, I never suggested any military forces shoot back. I brought up the question of ROE and what our troops are supposed to do.
I spent about 15 minutes typing a response, previewed it, and realized we're going to agree to disagree. Rather than spend the afternoon playing back and forth on the internet, I'm going to re-read Steve Wilkin's Red Cross thread to make a donation.
metro said:
nope.
1. these people are not thinking rationally. look at what they're going through. last night, i gave some internet cards to a family i met-- and the woman burst into tears. that's someone who got out, someone who has money, someone who has a place to stay. the people in N.O. are not thinking rationally at this point. no food, no water, no shelter, no way out-- how rational would you be? it's been over a week.
2. it's been said before, but many of these people were not mentally well to begin with. that's a large part of the reason why they didn't leave. now, if you put them in a situation like this, what is the realistic expectation of their behavior? if you take a schizo, literally, and put a weapon in his hand, what do you think he's going to do with it? chop down trees and build a flat-bottomed river boat?
you hit it right on when your very first word was 'Rational.'
at the moment, they're under stress that you can never imagine. these people are no longer rational.
your military example is preposterous. how on earth can you compare someone who has been trained for that situation to someone who has not, AND to someone who probably was not mentally well in the first place?
snow85 said:
They may not be thinking rationally but I don't think there is anyway we (safe and sound) can even think about saying what they are thinking or what not. Oh, and it HAS NOT been over a week, it has been 5 days. Last I checked a week was 7 days. I think the biggest way to put the actions of those people in perspective is to compare it to other countries who have suffered severe disasters...wait they didn't have riots or people shooting rescue workers...I guess we can't justify their actions afterall.
snow85 said:
I can't believe that you are actually saying that MANY of the people in N.O. are insane. What are you thinking? One minute you are talking about it being all about the circumstances and the next minute you say they are crazy and thats why they stayed down there? Seems like an unrealistic explanation.
I have read through some of your posts and I must say I am starting to see a pattern of insulting behavior as a means of promoting your views. I would avoid that in the future.
jamnww said:
jamnww:
okay-- first, you give me negative rep points, and NOW, you're telling me what to say. who are you, and what legs do you stand on? where do you live? have you ever lived in an emergency shelter? i have, and in addition to that, i work in them on a routine basis.
i happen to be a certified Red Cross disaster volunteer, (among other things), who has been tapped by the federal government to do this professionally.
your 5-7 day semantics isn't even cute-- it just shows how little you understand of the situation in which these people find themselves.
i never said that it was okay to rape and shoot. i never said that it was okay to steal food from a child. i never said that it was okay to bludgeon a grandma to death and steal her drugs. (flynsail.) jamnww: if you read what i wrote, you'll see that. maybe you should do that before you find it 'insulting', or whatever you wrote in my neg rep point.
you can't compare this to disasters in other countries, when we all know, what you're comparing is apples and oranges. tsunami-stricken countries had little infrastructure to begin with. you can't compare rural parts of indonesia to new orleans, la, and biloxi and gulfport, ms. and again, tragedies happen to rescue and aid workers the world over. do your research. i can tell you their stories, but i'm going to make sure that i can cite them first.
we're also talking about a storm that had tropical storm-force winds through tennessee. that's the middle of the country.
i live in HOUSTON. guess what? we're the city that is taking the majority of the evacuees. we're the ones who are raising money that we don't have-- in the past three days, a radio station pulled down over $300,000 in CASH. that's from the people of the city-- not huge corporate donors. we're the ones who are enrolling their children in our schools. we're the ones who are literally opening our homes to people we don't even know on an indefinite basis.
we're also the ones that this storm could have hit.
many of the people in N.O. are not well. again, that is the reason why they were unable to leave the city. the majority of the people who could have left, did. have you ever lived in a big city? have you ever seen a homless population? do you know how many of those people are simply not well?
i can absolutely tell you that when H-town flooded three years ago, it would have been a major struggle to evacuate only our medical patients. this is in a place where flood water rarely sticks around for very long. evacuating the homeless and the destitute would have been a logistical nightmare, but i'm sure we would have tried. and what's your answer to people who refuse to leave their homes because it's the ONLY thing they have?
no, mental illness isn't the only reason for this behavior, but to rule it out is to prove ignorance. those who may have been 'rational' three days ago are losing it more and more as time goes on. you really need to think about what you're saying, and about what you know and don't know.
i've seen people in desperate situations time and time again. talking to refugees, or being one under any circumstances, would break your hard little stone cold heart.
zab--
when i said shoot back, i meant along the lines of your rubber bullets comment. i don't agree that the military personnel should risk their lives trying to assist those who are threatening them.
snow85 said:
I am not telling you what to say and the negative rep points was for a massively insulting post you made earlier. I made a response to your later post after that. My background is not the matter here and thats great that you work in a shelter on a routine basis, I am proud of everyone who does. I do however have a history background and have studied natural disasters to an extent.
snow85 said:
Its all about accuracy in posts and if you get mad when someone points out when you misspeak then maybe you should edit your own posts. As for understanding it, well think what you want you will anyway.
snow85 said:
I said it was insulting because you went out of your way to degrade someone who disagreed with you not for what your agrument was.
snow85 said:
Yes, I happen to know where tennessee is but thank you anyway. As for comparing it to other countries, well if you wanted to know I was comparing it to major floods in Europe, major earthquakes in Japan and China, as well as the area you mentioned. I think even you can agree that Europe has some infrastructure. Yes tragedies do happen, but not on the scale of what has been going on in N.O., thankfully MS has done better with it.
snow85 said:
Well congrats, I am sure that all of that is mostly your work so I know you have been very busy this week. I do seem to recall however that areas all over the country are taking in people and raising money to send down. In fact a school by us is taking in about 500 families for an indefinite basis as you said. As for the storm could have hit you...well IT DID HIT US so maybe you can back off the soapbox a bit.
snow85 said:
That is not the type of "not well" that you implied in your earlier post. You indicated that they were mentally ill. Hey, I feel for the impoverished people from that area and yes even those who had the means to escape but didn't. It is a horrible disaster and no one deserves to go through it.
snow85 said:
Well if they refuse to leave I would say fine I will see you when the storm is over but don't blame me. Yes, my house flooded when I was younger, its not a good thing and yes the logistics associated is rough.
snow85 said:
I never said that it wasn't the case sometimes, nor did I say that desperate people aren't capable of horrible things. I did say that it doesn't necessarily excuse them from the consequences of their actions. To say (as you did) that the reason MANY didn't leave was mental illness is just ignorant.
snow85 said:
Again, good on you for helping out. Perhaps however, seeing as you have no idea who I am or what my background is you can refrain from the blatently insulting comments and just simply state your case and discuss it on that basis.