Firing at us? Trying to help you?

[Brett327]

You crazy kids. How about a little love - Rodney King style, eh?

Brett

 

[jamnww]

You crazy kids. How about a little love - Rodney King style, eh?

Brett

awesome.. you know I do have a stick...

 

[snow85]

1. I am not telling you what to say and the negative rep points was for a massively insulting post you made earlier. I made a response to your later post after that.

2.My background is not the matter here and thats great that you work in a shelter on a routine basis, I am proud of everyone who does.

3.I do however have a history background and have studied natural disasters to an extent.

4. Its all about accuracy in posts and if you get mad when someone points out when you misspeak then maybe you should edit your own posts. As for understanding it, well think what you want you will anyway.

5. I said it was insulting because you went out of your way to degrade someone who disagreed with you not for what your agrument was.

6. Yes, I happen to know where tennessee is but thank you anyway. As for comparing it to other countries, well if you wanted to know I was comparing it to major floods in Europe, major earthquakes in Japan and China, as well as the area you mentioned. I think even you can agree that Europe has some infrastructure. Yes tragedies do happen, but not on the scale of what has been going on in N.O., thankfully MS has done better with it.

7. Well congrats, I am sure that all of that is mostly your work so I know you have been very busy this week. I do seem to recall however that areas all over the country are taking in people and raising money to send down. In fact a school by us is taking in about 500 families for an indefinite basis as you said. As for the storm could have hit you...well IT DID HIT US so maybe you can back off the soapbox a bit.

8. That is not the type of "not well" that you implied in your earlier post. You indicated that they were mentally ill. Hey, I feel for the impoverished people from that area and yes even those who had the means to escape but didn't. It is a horrible disaster and no one deserves to go through it.

Well if they refuse to leave I would say fine I will see you when the storm is over but don't blame me. Yes, my house flooded when I was younger, its not a good thing and yes the logistics associated is rough.

I never said that it wasn't the case sometimes, nor did I say that desperate people aren't capable of horrible things. I did say that it doesn't necessarily excuse them from the consequences of their actions. To say (as you did) that the reason MANY didn't leave was mental illness is just ignorant.

9. Again, good on you for helping out. Perhaps however, seeing as you have no idea who I am or what my background is you can refrain from the blatently insulting comments and just simply state your case and discuss it on that basis.

1. actually, yes you did. and what is the post? go ahead and pm me, if you don't want to sh*t it on here--- but quote it, and your opinion so that i know what the hell you're talking about.

2. yes it is, if you have no concept and you're spouting off.

3. a history background? spectacular. yours plus mine might get someone somewhere. you really should be looking at all sides. historically, this problem in nola dates back to at least 1969.

4. where am i inaccurate? and why/how so? because i said a week? tell me, when did the warnings and evacs start? 5 days ago? or was it before the actual storm hit?

5. degrade someone? quote it. or pm it to me.

6. there is no comparison to be made. hurricanes don't hit europe. when has a flood the size of this one, with the 'staying power' that this one has, hit a major european city? japanese? chinese? yes, europe has infrastructure, but you still really can't compare. the netherlands has a great levy system, but they don't get storms like the one that just hit nola. even the transportation systems are completely different. so is the governmental structure. in N.O., which is what we're talking about, the damage is being caused by the break in the levy, not the wind and storm surge the way the damage is in other parts of LA, MS, and AL.

7. awww, thanks. i've been tapped. w/o further detail, my entire process, should i accept, will take about two years from start to finish, including that ever popular sf-86-- just to be employed.

i'm not saying that other areas aren't helping, but very few areas could do what we have done, in the period of time that we have done it. there are reasons for that. you couldn't send those people east to florida or georgia, not knowing where that hurricane was going to go. we've been there, and we know what hurricanes are like. as you know, they're a fact of life on the gulf coast, and that's a risk you take when you live there. because Houston is so big and sprawling, we have the room to take in thousands of people. we sent our electricity guys out there-- they're trying to restore power. we have them, why not spare them? ellington field has opened up to take them in as well. (brac hit it, we're losing the f-16s. senators are mad.) because we've been there, and know exactly what being hit by a hurricane is like, because we've flooded in the past, we open our hearts, homes, and wallets in a much different way than people in iowa. i could back off-- if you'd use some of your 'IT DID HIT US' perspective, instead of acting like the person with the electricity, the comms ability, and the gas in the car, who while hit, is quick to condemn the actions of the people who are stranded in their own literal cesspool.

8. i indicated both physically ill, and mentally ill-- by clinical definitions. i also indicated those who are becoming both physically ill and mentally unstable due to the stress and horrific conditions of N.O. and if you've been paying attention to the news, or have been reading it on your working computer, you'll see that MANY of those people are mentally ill, elderly alzheimer's patients included. it's not ignorance. it's fact. the people who have been there-- the refugees-- they state the same fact.

additionally, where are you going to put the people who are committing criminal acts? the prisons have been evacuated. i didn't say that being desperate excuses being culpable for your actions. i said that there is a reason for the actions, and that it's not hard to see. your attitude comes accross as 'well, most of them were federal fund sucking criminals to begin with, it's their own fault, so let them die off. survival of the smartest and the fittest. darwin rules!' SOME of them probably fit that description, as you would find anywhere, but definitely not all, and probably not even most.

9. i still stand by what i've said. you're the one who gave me neg rep points before you ever addressed me on the forum, and before you stated anything to me. as far as backgrounds, i've written policy studies on all kinds of things, and being that i've been an evacuee, (5 shelters, one week), i know first hand at least a little of what these people are going through. separately, i've watched from a safe place as my city was flooded in a way that could NEVER have been forseen. (unlike nola.) that, in addition to my education and training, means that i know what i'm talking about, and makes me an extremely effective volunteer in a situation like this. i do what is needed whenever it is needed, and part of that includes dispelling misconceptions, and offering ideas that haven't been raised in discussions like this.


brett: i prefer a good pimpin' style brass knuckles backhand. :icon_boxi

 

[Herc_Dude]

You two should exchange phone numbers and address then duke it out.

 

[Country Boy]

because we've been there, and know exactly what being hit by a hurricane is like, because we've flooded in the past, we open our hearts, homes, and wallets in a much different way than people in iowa.

What the hell do the good people in Iowa have to do with this? :icon_smil

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I'm going to re-read Steve Wilkin's Red Cross thread to make a donation.

Good man!

 

[jamnww]

Rather than continue this useless discussion further I will close with several short statements and leave the rest to PM.

1. I never said you can't say something in particular only offered friendly advice saying that maybe you should state your opinion without going out of your way to insult those you are talking to or those in Iowa. :icon_mi_1

2. Someone can have an opinion without being specifically trained in an area, he11 thats all news people do all day long. Yes you seem to have a specialized education in relation to disasters but you shouldn't discount those of others out of hand and use insults to try to silence them.

3. Over a week is not a week and certainly not 5 days, its just exaggerating the truth.

4. Simple fact is that there has not been a disaster in the US on this scale before and to say that we can ONLY compare peoples reaction to it with an exact copy of the event is absurd.

5. Yes I am more than willing to condone those who commit crimes that as a result delay the rescue of those that really need help and as a result people die. So yes, I am intolerant of people driving off rescue workers so they can steal a TV while those around them die.

 

[eddie]

Something tells me that if this thread were an actual, real-time conversation, there would be a lot less arguing...

 

[jamnww]

Very very very likely...

Just found this...

"Respectfully, I submit that you should shut the hell up. Looting and lawlessness IS the problem. The National Guard choppers are BEING SHOT AT. The NOPD are BEING SHOT AT. You want to focus on the levee? So do they, but check this out: THEY CAN'T UNTIL THE MOB STOPS ATTACKING THE RESCUE OPERATION." - from inside N.O.

 

[PSno23]

what are you going to do?

sell them for CASH because that is your ONLY way out. that means that you have to sell them to people who have cash ON them, because it's not like people are going to be running to the atm. Nikes? you're going to WEAR them, because chances are-- you don't have shoes, and IF you do, they've been destroyed by the cesspool that you've been walking through, and the constant HEAT and SUN that you've been exposed to for well over a week.

as much as i hate to say this, looting might be the best thing for those houses. this isn't your run-of-the-mill, post-disaster looting. if there is consumable food, it should be eaten so that it doesn't rot. NO ONE is going to get anything back anyway, and if they do, ALL of their possessions will have to be destroyed. the place is a literal toxic cesspool, and after the water is drained, the soil will be contaminated for years and years to come. they can't possibly BUY food or vaccinations, potable water or medication: there is no system in place to handle a cash flow, and all of these items will spoil. if it's the right items, for the right reasons, can you drink your coffee, take a daily multi-vitamin, and condemn them for it?

you have got to be kidding me.

i'm not making excuses for the moral degredation re: rape, nor am i condoning the stealing of weapons. however, shooting at the military, and shooting at people (aka vying for space and care) in hospital beds-- whether or not i think it's the right thing to do, yes, i can absolutely see how it happens. here i sit on the outside, and i can see that.

they're shooting at the military because they don't know what else to do. in their eyes, they can 'threaten' you to save their family. 'if you don't fly down here and pick us up off of our rotting roof, we'll try to make you do it.' that is what they see: if you can force us to take specific action with your weapons, why can we not do the same to you?

many have relatives who need medicine, who need ELECTRICITY to operate their breathing machines and heart/lung pumps. they're desperately trying to save their families the only way that they can possibly understand at the moment.

i don't expect you to be able to understand the total and complete loss that these people have suffered. you're sitting in your air-conditioned room, in front of your TV, with food in your refrigerator, probably no sunburn, with rested feet, with (albeit expensive) gas in your car, that's parked on a street to and from which not only are you allowed to move freely, but is free from obstructions so that you CAN. you're typing these opinions because you CAN.

these people are taking these actions to survive.

WOW.

That's some pretty messed up logic, in my opinion. First of all, I never said I had a problem with looting the basic necessities - personal hygiene products, vitamins, food, etc. I would probably be doing the same thing if put in that position. The fact that you are defending the looting in general is ludicrous. I think you'd probably have a different opinion if you were from New Orleans.

Sell DVD players, TVs, etc for money? To whom??? Who the hell is going to buy a TV in the middle of a natural disaster. Are you kidding me?

Shooting at the military because they don't know what to do? BS. These people are thugs, plain and simple. They have taken advantage of a city in distress and turned into their personal playground of crime. They're drug addicts. They haven't been able to get their drugs and they're going crazy. Don't believe me? Read what the mayor of the city has to say about it. I have never heard of anyone firing at somebody trying to rescue them. What about sniping at doctors trying to evacuate patients from a hospital? What about holding up a truck at gunpoint bring critical supplies to a hospital. Oh, and did I mention shooting at police officers, tourists, innocent people? And I'll just go ahead and remind you of shooting at rescue helicopters. These armed thugs are no better than the terrorists we're fighting in Iraq.

And don't you dare criticize me for not understanding the total and complete loss they are suffering. I AM FROM NEW ORLEANS. MY FAMILY LIVES THERE. You think I didn't lose anything in that storm? You think my family and friends didn't lose anything in that storm? My best friend's house is sitting under 20 feet of water. My godmothers house was right next to the part of the levee that breached. I have no idea about either of my parents' houses. We haven't heard from either of my mom's two sisters and their families since before the storm. So don't you dare sit there and say I can't possibly understand the loss going on. I may be comfortable in my air conditioned house in front of a TV, but that doesn't mean this storm hasn't affected me.

You've got a lot of nerve.

 

[DanMa1156]

I think all that sno85 was trying to say (at least originally) was that some people are looting out of necessity, much like Cate said:

I don't know about zero-tolerance for looters; you really have two different kinds. One is the kind that looks around at the death, destruction, horrible loss and tragedy around them and thinks, "Hey, free TV! Grab that DVD player, too!" You don't have electricity, asshat. The other one, though, is the kind that is sitting with his family on the second floor of their flooded house, waiting for someone to come by and resccue them, and realizes that they're all hungry, the baby needs diapers, and there isn't anyone at the Mini Mart to take his money, even if he had any to offer. Lines get fairly blurry in situations like this.

I think we should stop flaming sno85 and actually listen to what (s?)he has to say. I agree that looting is wrong, especially anything not a basic necessity, but stealing food when there is none to be found to feed your baby, I mean, can we have some human decency? If the rescuers can not get to the people or the people are unaware of any rescue efforts (remember these people often have no contact of the outside world), can we honestly say if there was a store full of food within the area, we'd shy away from it? I do have pity with these people.

We should also keep in mind that many of these people were unable to evacuate because of there severe poverty (28% of N.O. residents live below the poverty line), and Louisiana is always at the bottom of the "wealthy states" list.

Somebody mentioned earlier about rights and how they should be given only to those who earned them (apparently people more civilized than Louisianian's I think was the poster's intent) but we forget that they are inaliable rights guaranteed to every citizen within the borders of the United States of America. I know I'm rambling here, but really, stop the flaming and just get back to the point. While we all agree that looting and shooting (especially at rescuers) is wrong, we disagree on what these survivors should do to stay alive, and as a result, we should stop flaming and just agree to disagree.

 

[jamnww]

I think all that sno85 was trying to say (at least originally) was that some people are looting out of necessity, much like Cate said:

I think we should stop flaming sno85 and actually listen to what (s?)he has to say. I agree that looting is wrong, especially anything not a basic necessity, but stealing food when there is none to be found to feed your baby, I mean, can we have some human decency? If the rescuers can not get to the people or the people are unaware of any rescue efforts (remember these people often have no contact of the outside world), can we honestly say if there was a store full of food within the area, we'd shy away from it? I do have pity with these people.

We should also keep in mind that many of these people were unable to evacuate because of there severe poverty (28% of N.O. residents live below the poverty line), and Louisiana is always at the bottom of the "wealthy states" list.

Somebody mentioned earlier about rights and how they should be given only to those who earned them (apparently people more civilized than Louisianian's I think was the poster's intent) but we forget that they are inaliable rights guaranteed to every citizen within the borders of the United States of America. I know I'm rambling here, but really, stop the flaming and just get back to the point. While we all agree that looting and shooting (especially at rescuers) is wrong, we disagree on what these survivors should do to stay alive, and as a result, we should stop flaming and just agree to disagree.

I don't think most people on here would disagree with you and I have said basically the same thing to Sno via PM. I don't think anyone was attempting to flame him, just merely getting into a heated discussion about what is going on. I might be wrong...

 

[Jolly Roger]

i live in HOUSTON. guess what? we're the city that is taking the majority of the evacuees. we're the ones who are raising money that we don't have-- in the past three days, a radio station pulled down over $300,000 in CASH. that's from the people of the city-- not huge corporate donors. we're the ones who are enrolling their children in our schools. we're the ones who are literally opening our homes to people we don't even know on an indefinite basis.

That would be 94.5 "The Buzz" and their "Hurricane Katrina Request-athon", they tally up to noon today is $460,000. That is pretty awesome, considering most donoations have been around $100. We were briefed not to go down around the AstroDome unless we have absolutely necessary and to be a little more cautious than normal.

 

[snow85]

jolly roger-- that would be the one. usually known for.. well... you listen, so you know how they usually are.

i think donations range from $5-2000+.

about the dome--


what i know is that they're taking ANY AND ALL volunteers they can get, whether you've had the mandatory two hour training or not. they just need able bodies.

i'm checking to see where i can be best utilized this weekend, but if i don't hear back from my contacts, i'm going to head down there anyway. they opened the astroarena and astrohall (reliant brand name now) for more evacuees. of course, being more cautious than 'normal' in that area of town is just prudent. pm me your contact info, and if/when i head down there, i'll let you know.

houston has also been declared a federal disaster area or somesuch, so we'll get FEMA aid to assist the evacuees.

country boy--

nothing, but an example as a state that couldn't understand what a hurricane is like because you won't ever get one. i lived (further north) in tornado alley for a while-- you have your own weather difficulties. don't feel bad-- native houstonians would hit the fetal position if they were ever caught in a blizzard. snow is completely foreign to them, so when you guys get hit hard in the winter, they look at it, and feel bad, but can't empathize. the point was that coastal states who have been hit have a different understanding and view of what a hurricane is and does.

jamnww-- hopefully you quoted everything i requested in a pm. since you didn't do it on here, i'm wondering if it exists at all. it's very shortsided to criticize these people without taking all the potential issues into consideration. i'm not arguing that looting and lawlessness aren't major, major problems. to condemn all of those people to the level of criminals however, is simply myopic and unfair. this thread was bashing looting with no regard as to WHAT was being looted, by WHOM, and for WHAT PURPOSE. that's the entire reason i posted in the first place. doesn't have anything to do with a specialized education of any kind. i just happen to have been doing this work for a while. and if you read-- i didn't discount criminals and criminal behavior. i didn't say that we had to compare it to and EXACT copy-- i said that there is no comparison.


PSno--

nerve? yes i do. and when you've seen the things i've seen, and been in contact with the people i have, you will too, when it comes to this. i probably wouldn't be changing songs if i was from new orleans, because as you've read, my city has been flooded to the point of being shut down as well. and i left the day that the flooding started, on a prior commitment, thanks to a great commercial pilot.

as far as selling things, did you read what i wrote? to people who have cash on them, in other words, in exchange for cash. doesn't it strike you as odd that they're stealing electronics when they have no home, and no electricity to use them? how rational is that? what usually happens to those items? they get sold on the black market, or pawned. for what? cash.

this is specifically addressed to you:

a man shoots at a military helicopter from the roof of his house. there is nothing but water around him. they may or may not be able to see him. they've been trained, aka military, to work under fire. this person doesn't have a clue about shooting at helicopters, no military training. is he shooting at them because he DOESN'T want them to pick him up off of his sinking house? is he wrong?

and how many times to i have to type that i don't condone it, but until you know the general reasons, for EVERYONE, you can't condemn everyone as a group. i've already wrote several times that i don't support this. did you read any of that?

furthermore, you're in front of a computer. do you know what that tells me? you in a place with electricity, access to the world, probably air conditioning. which means that you're not on bourbon street. you can be as mad and frustrated with me as you want. i still maintain what i said-- you've lost your history, possibly family members, etc. but you personally, still have a comfortable bed to sleep in tonight. i live in texas, but do you know if i have ties to nola? no. but i do have a place to sleep, and i am in the a/c. i've been away from home, and have not known if i've had a home, MY home-- not my parents'-- to go back to. i've been at least in that position. that's why i can spend my evenings, my holiday weekend, my hard earned money volunteering.

 

[snow85]

I don't think most people on here would disagree with you and I have said basically the same thing to Sno via PM. I don't think anyone was attempting to flame him, just merely getting into a heated discussion about what is going on. I might be wrong...

and this is NOT what you said to me via PM.