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Firing at us? Trying to help you?
- Thread starter Road Program
- Start date
snow85 said:
Hitting the high points...I said:
1) Looting bad, especially when none essential stuff (essentials are grey area)
2) Many who couldn't evac couldn't due to financial reasons as well as health
As for the part about rights, well I didn't hit that but wish I had. Read your PMs. Now I really am done with this squabble...
Snow,
I'll only argue one point with you. I have inferred that your experience of not having a shelter over your head, not eating, and downright just being miserable enable you to see an angle differently from those that have not. However, this does not given any more credence to your argument in terms of understanding or even why certain people in certain circumstances are reacting the way they are. There have been individuals in worse situations still doing the right thing. Shooting at a helicopter to get attention is still shooting at a helicopter. Stealing a CD player to sell on the black market is no less wrong than if it were stolen by some guy on a normal day to listen to music. The end does not "justify" the means. Sure one can argue that extreme situations call for extreme measures. Unfortunately criminals were criminals before Katrina (as has been previously argued). I'm not sure if experience (specifically yours, but applied liberally) really matters in judging an ethical argument (moral statement I realize).
On a more curiousity-sparked question, allow me to go back to the helicopter bit... I'm not a military-trained armed helicopter pilot. However, I'm pretty confident that they are not trained to be fired upon by Americans, in America. I have on the other hand seen the footage of what happens to people firing on US troops on the ground (in foreign lands). It didn't take for long that they weren't shooting any more. So how exactly is anyone shooting at a helicopter justifiable? Or maybe it's not, and maybe you're not trying to justify it. Can I get the limes yet?
I'll only argue one point with you. I have inferred that your experience of not having a shelter over your head, not eating, and downright just being miserable enable you to see an angle differently from those that have not. However, this does not given any more credence to your argument in terms of understanding or even why certain people in certain circumstances are reacting the way they are. There have been individuals in worse situations still doing the right thing. Shooting at a helicopter to get attention is still shooting at a helicopter. Stealing a CD player to sell on the black market is no less wrong than if it were stolen by some guy on a normal day to listen to music. The end does not "justify" the means. Sure one can argue that extreme situations call for extreme measures. Unfortunately criminals were criminals before Katrina (as has been previously argued). I'm not sure if experience (specifically yours, but applied liberally) really matters in judging an ethical argument (moral statement I realize).
On a more curiousity-sparked question, allow me to go back to the helicopter bit... I'm not a military-trained armed helicopter pilot. However, I'm pretty confident that they are not trained to be fired upon by Americans, in America. I have on the other hand seen the footage of what happens to people firing on US troops on the ground (in foreign lands). It didn't take for long that they weren't shooting any more. So how exactly is anyone shooting at a helicopter justifiable? Or maybe it's not, and maybe you're not trying to justify it. Can I get the limes yet?
Again, answer my question. Who is going to give somebody cash for a TV that was just stolen while they're standing in 3 feet of water? Unfortunately, the city has told police to ignore the looting. Such a disregard for the breaking of civil laws is a big part of why the police have lost control of the city.
Yes. It is groups of gunmen firing at these helicopters. It is groups of gunmen who are firing at police officers without provocation. It is groups of gunmen who are taking positions and firing on doctors trying to evacuate sick patients from hospitals. These thugs have no morals, no ethical code, no regard for any human life. They see an opportunity to seize a city and cause as much trouble as they can. There is no justification for such actions in any general sense. Shoot em all.
You're right. I do have a comfortable bed to sleep in and I do have electricity. Does that make me a bad person? No. Lucky, yes, and I am thankful for that. But again, I resent the statement you made that I couldn't understand the loss these people are suffering. These are my neighbors. This is the city I was born and grew up in. How do you think it makes me feel to see this beautiful city that I still call home utterly destroyed? Furthermore, how do you think it makes me feel that the only thing I can really do right now is contribute to the Red Cross? Sure, I've volunteered to go help with the relief efforts. Unfortunately, my command can't exactly say, "Ok, good to go, see ya later." Don't think you're high and mighty just because you're in a place where you can volunteer. I'm glad that you feel that because you've at least suffered not knowing if you had a home to go back to, you can go volunteer your time. Really. Why don't you just keep patting yourself on the back. But guess what, you're no better than me.
kmac said:
kmac-- did you read what i wrote? i didn't say that shooting at a helicopter was justified. i said that there is at least one reason that i can understand. in fact, that aside, i said that it wasn't acceptable and that the military should shoot back. that point is that they can operate under fire-- not that they should or shouldn't shoot back. did you read that? i hope you did. same thing for stealing electronics. i didn't say that it was justified.
i noticed though, that you didn't touch the arguments about stealing food, medicine, and water. why?
additionally, yes, my experiences have given me insight to this situation that most don't have-- i CHOSE to stay in my situation, and i COULD HAVE taken a flight home, and slept in a nice warm bed, instead of the tile floor of a high school cafeteria across the street from a literal crack house/brothel. i didn't have food, water, a shower, or any other 'necessary creature comforts.' i didn't steal them either, but others did. that's just me.
my training and my education are more important here, than my personal experiences. those just enrich the quality of the assistance i am able to provide.
again, there's always another side of the coin, which is what i'm stating here. how many nervous breakdowns do you think are happening to N.O. residents right now, no matter where they are?
limes.... yes....limes.... i will bring salt.
Snow,
I'll be honest, I haven't read every word that every person has said on here. I didn't mean to imply that you thought any of the actions taken were justifiable. When it comes to stealing food, water, and medicine, I suppose it is safe to say that indeed we are labeling these people as a being monkey's in the game of survival of the fittest; that a primal group has overtaken New Orleans. What then happened to any civilized people? I know those are strong words, and I'm using them in the position of devil's advocate.
On the issue of experience, I'm not referring to your experience (or education) as a reason for staying in the area to volunteer. I'm questioning your experience of being in a down-trodden circumstance as a ground for judging the logical arguments made by those here about some people, in some areas, of New Orleans (of which several of my fellow posters don't have
). It relates to what civlizations are firmly rooted and how this is lacking in NO. And why is this argument (addressed to all, not just Snow) only related to those that did not leave the city. Let's talk about the financial burden that will be picked up by the business owners, whom have lost so much in this as well. Property owners might as well be included here also. Or how about the oil companies that are losing because the port is inoperable to transfer the goods? Yes this is devastating, and I'm sure Snow's help in the city is Samaritan-like.
And a bonus: Do those military helicopters operating in the area carry ammo?
I'll be honest, I haven't read every word that every person has said on here. I didn't mean to imply that you thought any of the actions taken were justifiable. When it comes to stealing food, water, and medicine, I suppose it is safe to say that indeed we are labeling these people as a being monkey's in the game of survival of the fittest; that a primal group has overtaken New Orleans. What then happened to any civilized people? I know those are strong words, and I'm using them in the position of devil's advocate.
On the issue of experience, I'm not referring to your experience (or education) as a reason for staying in the area to volunteer. I'm questioning your experience of being in a down-trodden circumstance as a ground for judging the logical arguments made by those here about some people, in some areas, of New Orleans (of which several of my fellow posters don't have
). It relates to what civlizations are firmly rooted and how this is lacking in NO. And why is this argument (addressed to all, not just Snow) only related to those that did not leave the city. Let's talk about the financial burden that will be picked up by the business owners, whom have lost so much in this as well. Property owners might as well be included here also. Or how about the oil companies that are losing because the port is inoperable to transfer the goods? Yes this is devastating, and I'm sure Snow's help in the city is Samaritan-like. And a bonus: Do those military helicopters operating in the area carry ammo?
PSNO--
you asked why they were stealing. i told you. they're not rational. they think that they can a) watch them, or b) get cash for them. as we all know, right now, neither of these things will come to fruition. i answered your question before you asked it.
i never said that you were a bad person, nor did i say that i am better. i'm doing the best i can with what i've been given, i suspect, like everyone else who cares enough to actually spend their time on the relief effort. fortunately for me, i happen to live in the closest major city to n.o. we see la tags on cars ALL the time here, disaster or not. my parents go several times a year. i don't happen to have thousands of dollars sitting around, and even if i did, i would still volunteer my time.
we, here in houston, KNOW what it's like to undergo a hurricane. we know what it's like to withstand a terrible flood. (although not one that sticks around.) we know what it's like to have our hospitals on super duper emergency generators.
everyone here is helping in whatever way they can-- you need to understand that. our entire city, literally, is volunteering to help, and the money is just pouring in. at the moment, our gas is either right at, or above the national average-- almost a dollar more per gallon than we usually pay in relation to the average. they're just driving that right down the street. so we're pinched, but you know what? we're STILL giving, and we will continue to give for as long as it takes. our mayor is even calling the heads of major corporations and personally requesting that they come here and hire evacuees on a temporary basis. conventions have been cancelled so that we can open our convention center... google all this stuff. there are people everywhere in houston.
your family could be here for all either of us knows. if they need help, i'll be happy to do what i can. but, if you'd prefer-- i'll divert my time elsewhere.
how do i think you feel about only being able to donate to the red cross? probably pretty damn sh*tty. but don't you dare sit here and ream me for volunteering to help these people, your neighbors, just because you can't, just because you're scared, hurt, and frustrated. there are clean, full, well-rested children LAUGHING and PLAYING in the astrodome tonight, because of people like me, because of the people who trained me, and the people who trained them. my mom-- remember-- major company that does business in the area-- will be volunteering this weekend for the relief effort, as will my dad. my boss will be volunteering as well. NO ONE here has to do that. it's not a requirement to live in this city. we're doing it because we want to, because our hearts really go out to you, and because we can. the only thing you can do now is look to the future and this time around learn the lessons of this tragedy-- it's all any of us can do. the one thing we all understand-- no one will move forward if we don't do it together.
you asked why they were stealing. i told you. they're not rational. they think that they can a) watch them, or b) get cash for them. as we all know, right now, neither of these things will come to fruition. i answered your question before you asked it.
i never said that you were a bad person, nor did i say that i am better. i'm doing the best i can with what i've been given, i suspect, like everyone else who cares enough to actually spend their time on the relief effort. fortunately for me, i happen to live in the closest major city to n.o. we see la tags on cars ALL the time here, disaster or not. my parents go several times a year. i don't happen to have thousands of dollars sitting around, and even if i did, i would still volunteer my time.
we, here in houston, KNOW what it's like to undergo a hurricane. we know what it's like to withstand a terrible flood. (although not one that sticks around.) we know what it's like to have our hospitals on super duper emergency generators.
everyone here is helping in whatever way they can-- you need to understand that. our entire city, literally, is volunteering to help, and the money is just pouring in. at the moment, our gas is either right at, or above the national average-- almost a dollar more per gallon than we usually pay in relation to the average. they're just driving that right down the street. so we're pinched, but you know what? we're STILL giving, and we will continue to give for as long as it takes. our mayor is even calling the heads of major corporations and personally requesting that they come here and hire evacuees on a temporary basis. conventions have been cancelled so that we can open our convention center... google all this stuff. there are people everywhere in houston.
your family could be here for all either of us knows. if they need help, i'll be happy to do what i can. but, if you'd prefer-- i'll divert my time elsewhere.
how do i think you feel about only being able to donate to the red cross? probably pretty damn sh*tty. but don't you dare sit here and ream me for volunteering to help these people, your neighbors, just because you can't, just because you're scared, hurt, and frustrated. there are clean, full, well-rested children LAUGHING and PLAYING in the astrodome tonight, because of people like me, because of the people who trained me, and the people who trained them. my mom-- remember-- major company that does business in the area-- will be volunteering this weekend for the relief effort, as will my dad. my boss will be volunteering as well. NO ONE here has to do that. it's not a requirement to live in this city. we're doing it because we want to, because our hearts really go out to you, and because we can. the only thing you can do now is look to the future and this time around learn the lessons of this tragedy-- it's all any of us can do. the one thing we all understand-- no one will move forward if we don't do it together.