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First flight of the P-8A Poseidon and all things related to transition

Stubby

Ask the Chief
once again.... uh.... no.

Don't doubt that you have flown overland -- just think that Predator gives a better info -- and it fires back without risking 15 people and costs a lot less (and therefore can provide more platforms for ISR).


Predator (or any other UAV) doesn't give anywhere near as good of information as MPA. The troops on the ground would specifically ask for MPA overhead if they were conducting an operation that required overhead intel support. MPA has more sensors, the info is more quickly processed and transmitted to the ground forces, the aircraft is more quickly positioned/repositioned, and has the capability to change missions. I know where you're coming from, but your "better info" argument is completely without merit. This of course, doesn't even address the issue of ASW and the myriad of other missions conducted by Maritime Patrol.

As far as risking aircrews.... that is what we do for a living.... same as you. Of course VP haven't lost an aircraft as result of enemy fire since the 1950's (that was a P-2 shot down by Migs off the coast of Alaska... everyone survived), and we have never lost an aircraft in a combat zone as a result of mechanical failure (knock wood), so while your concern is appreciated, it is a bit overly cautious.

As far as firing back, the P-3 does have that capability. We carried weapons in Bosnia and in Afghanistan. With the absolute air superiority of the United States (and it's allies) however, there is typically no reason for P-3's to carry that type of ordnance.... as there are generally strike aircraft nearby when needed (thanks guys). Incidentally, P-3's have fired on ground positions in Serbia and Afghanistan.

I've already given you cheaper.... If that was the sole consideration you might have an argument, However you’d be short changing the guys on the ground and robbing the country of a valuable asset.
 

chrispaul

NFO
None
I would still rather have more ISR platforms for the cost and not have to pick up the mess from a P3 that went down in country.

Maybe a good compromise for hscs and Stubby would be to bring back the old OV-10 Bronco.
 

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NavyLonghorn

Registered User
I would still rather have more ISR platforms for the cost and not have to pick up the mess from a P3 that went down in country.


Well hell, lets just automate our whole fleet. What about AirCraft carriers in the gulf with 2,000 + People on them? Are you kidding me dude? What about re-fueling platforms, what about C-130's, A-C130's, C-17's, E-6's, and all of the other crew aircraft? Lets just shelter all of them from risk, they cant do their job if its dangerous!
 

1rotorhead

Registered User
pilot
Maybe you can cut a hole in the side of the P-3 so it can carry the 105mm like the AC-130. That would be sweet! Should we call it the AP-3?
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
Navy Vance -- CVNs have close to 6000 people on them and don't steam alone. They use other ships, along with aircraft to provide protection.

The aircraft that you mentioned have vital roles (supply, tanking, gunships) that could not be filled by an automated, pilotless platform. And to be frank, I would much rather come in by C17/C130 and risk getting shot down than take my chances on a bus riding up the MSRs from Kuwait.

I am not happy about the whole automation thing either, but it is going to catch up with all of naval aviation, no matter what we fly. However, if there were a platform that would minimize my risk, I would be for it.
 

smittyrunr

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I'll jump in here very late...

-No winglets (icing), but -900 wing otherwise
-The trailer was up here in Maine in July, very cool, I thought the tube stuff could have been done up a little more, but the flight sim was great
-I think they're designing the P-8 to be JDAM capable (if the tacair guys ever let us)
-I think a couple P-3s were lost in Vietnam. Don't have the full story, but I could probably find something to share.
 

pdx

HSM Pilot
As far as risking aircrews.... that is what we do for a living.... same as you. Of course VP haven't lost an aircraft as result of enemy fire since the 1950's (that was a P-2 shot down by Migs off the coast of Alaska... everyone survived), and we have never lost an aircraft in a combat zone as a result of mechanical failure (knock wood), so while your concern is appreciated, it is a bit overly cautious.

-I think a couple P-3s were lost in Vietnam. Don't have the full story, but I could probably find something to share.

Doesn't the EP-3 have the distinction of being involved in the most recent air-to-air engagement in US history. Granted, it's not a P-3 and it wasn't "shot down" per se. Still, it proves once and for all that an EP-3 can take out an F-8:icon_what. While isn't as burning a question as F/A-18 vs Sukhoi, it's good to know.

On a more serious note, that had to be one hell of a flight. I remember reading that they had sudden decompression, wind ripping through the entire aircraft, and questionable controllability. Props to the entire crew for bringing it down safely and frying all the spooky $hit in the back.
 

zab1001

Well-Known Member
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
No no no. I was just trying to avoid a threadjack. Let's continue with "The P-8 isn't necessary, let's use UAVs instead", I'm enjoying this...
 

Stubby

Ask the Chief
whoops...

Regarding Vietnam, I know a VP-26 bird was shot down in 1968 by Cambodians. Lost the entire crew.

I stand corrected. VP-26 actually lost an aircraft to enemy action in Vietnam.

"On 1 April 1968, another serious incident occured between Khmer Navy and South Vietnamese vessels in the Gulf of Siam. While gunfire was exchanged between gunboats, a US Navy P-3B from VP-26 was sent to investigate and was shot down by the Cambodians. The US sources reported that one Orion was missing this day from a patrol on the area after being hit in the starboard wing. The plane crashed near the Phu Quoc Island near the Cambodian maritime border with the twelve crew-members killed."

My point is still valid, but let's not forget our brothers lost in action...
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
No no no. I was just trying to avoid a threadjack. Let's continue with "The P-8 isn't necessary, let's use UAVs instead", I'm enjoying this...

Yeah, back to HSCS' original premise that buying a new MMA is a waste of taxpayer dollars. Even if you buy the "Predator does it better/cheaper than the P-3" argument (which I don't), overland ISR is but one of many missions which MMA performs. How do you, HSCS, intend to perform ASW in the future, with helos? Just because the Soviets are out of the picture doesn't mean we can just ignore any possibility of a future sub threat. In fact, China is churning out subs like it's going out of style, many of which are destined for export. I'd be interested in your strategy for the future of ASW.

Brett
 

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Doesn't the EP-3 have the distinction of being involved in the most recent air-to-air engagement in US history. Granted, it's not a P-3 and it wasn't "shot down" per se. Still, it proves once and for all that an EP-3 can take out an F-8:icon_what. While isn't as burning a question as F/A-18 vs Sukhoi, it's good to know.

A kill is a kill... if you get the bad guy to mort himself into the ground, it's a kill... if he's dumb enough to hit your aircraft because he's fvcking around.... it's a kill.... ;)
 
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