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Hard Power and Soft Power

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
But maiming and suicides are acceptable outcomes of J6 “wrongdoing”? Way to back the blue.
That is a stretch. Nice try though. My support of law enforcement is apparently stronger than some folks accuracy in reporting on J6th casualties to leos. It is enough there were deaths To misrepresent the facts surrounding them devalues them by making them pawns. The facts are enough.
 

PhrogPhlyer

Two heads are better than one.
pilot
None
f3d8226a2f01d20e6dbe872aea532f1a.jpg
 

wink

War Hoover NFO.
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The Fraternal Order of Police seems to agree.



Understating can be part of a narrative as well. If you assault someone and they later die, you can be charged with murder. Arguing this down smacks of apologism- are you OK with the convicted J6ers going free?
Of course you are right about an assault leading to a delayed death. Yet no one was charged as such. Wonder why?

Not apologizing at all, just trying keep it factual. Pointing out exaggeration and misrepresentation is not to apologize for the underlying crime. No, I don't approve of the J6 pardons. I will respect you enough not to ask if you approve of Biden's pardons and commutations of real cop killers, not to mention possible future crimes committed against police by those he granted pardons for future crimes
 

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
Of course you are right about an assault leading to a delayed death. Yet no one was charged as such. Wonder why?

Not apologizing at all, just trying keep it factual. Pointing out exaggeration and misrepresentation is not to apologize for the underlying crime. No, I don't approve of the J6 pardons. I will respect you enough not to ask if you approve of Biden's pardons and commutations of real cop killers, not to mention possible future crimes committed against police by those he granted pardons for future crimes
You can ask- I take no issue with the question. I don’t approve of Biden’s pardons either.
 

Swanee

Cereal Killer
pilot
None
Contributor
Of course you are right about an assault leading to a delayed death. Yet no one was charged as such. Wonder why?

Not apologizing at all, just trying keep it factual. Pointing out exaggeration and misrepresentation is not to apologize for the underlying crime. No, I don't approve of the J6 pardons. I will respect you enough not to ask if you approve of Biden's pardons and commutations of real cop killers, not to mention possible future crimes committed against police by those he granted pardons for future crimes

A thought experiment-

WHAT IF- what if DC, MD, VA, DE National Guardsmen were given the order to defend the Capitol on J6 and they opened fire on those American Citizens who were part of the riots to gain entry into the Capitol building? How many people would they have killed defending the Capitol? Would their actions have been legal? Would they be charged? If found guilty would they have been pardoned or would they still be in jail?

This is another conversation that I have regularly at work.
This one bothers people- especially among the officer corps.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
A thought experiment-

WHAT IF- what if DC, MD, VA, DE National Guardsmen were given the order to defend the Capitol on J6 and they opened fire on those American Citizens who were part of the riots to gain entry into the Capitol building? How many people would they have killed defending the Capitol? Would their actions have been legal? Would they be charged? If found guilty would they have been pardoned or would they still be in jail?

This is another conversation that I have regularly at work.
This one bothers people- especially among the officer corps.
Curious, but why would they need to open fire against what was a mostly unarmed mob? If the rioters were armed with rifles and shotguns and started shooting at the Guardsmen, that is different, but otherwise, wouldn't the Guard have more peaceful ways to try to deal with such? No different from riot police or military peacekeeping in a country. For example, what if the Guard had been called up in various states to put a stop as best they could to the George Floyd riots that were going on in the cities? I would think (hope) they'd have various non-violent methods to try first. Like bean-bag guns, tear gas, water hoses, etc...which if the NG was tasked with defending a place against potential rioters I'd think (hope) they'd bring.
 
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JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Buried by the avalanche of all this shit, is a clear policy that was put forth today of throwing UKR under the bus. Nakedly, with no principles. There was an assertion made today from the WH that well RUS lost a lot of soldiers...so I guess they should keep that land. Those UKR citizens were just people who wanted to be Russians, or some shit.

Putin is now apparently being invited to the WH.

What am I missing? I'm sure we'll hear some hemming/hawing from Reagan-era cold warriors on here on why this is just.

Frag out...

Edit: for context


 
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Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
A thought experiment-

WHAT IF- what if DC, MD, VA, DE National Guardsmen were given the order to defend the Capitol on J6 and they opened fire on those American Citizens who were part of the riots to gain entry into the Capitol building? How many people would they have killed defending the Capitol? Would their actions have been legal? Would they be charged? If found guilty would they have been pardoned or would they still be in jail?

This is another conversation that I have regularly at work.
This one bothers people- especially among the officer corps.
As ground troops they would have been extensively briefed by the JA on the left and right limits of their mission and self-defense priorities. I don’t know for certain, but I doubt the guard guys who later worked the capitol building were given ammunition (the rifles were for show). I do know that when they are called out for riot duty they know exactly when they can crack a head or deploy a little weepy spray.

I get the questions, and it is always good to war game such things (even more so in your job) but I used to tell my soldiers - If you weren’t briefed on it, don’t even think about doing it.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Buried by the avalanche of all this shit, is a clear policy that was put forth today of throwing UKR under the bus. Nakedly, with no principles. There was an assertion made today from the WH that well RUS lost a lot of soldiers...so I guess they should keep that land. Those UKR citizens were just people who wanted to be Russians, or some shit.

Putin is now apparently being invited to the WH.

What am I missing? I'm sure we'll hear some hemming/hawing from Reagan-era cold warriors on here on why this is just.

Frag out...

Edit: for context


Altogether an idiotic comment by Trump and it will remain a scar on his administration.

Even so, Europe has been saying for months that Ukraine would have to make concessions and our own defense leaders are a bit worried about ordnance stockpiles. Simple math makes it clear that the Ukrainian people can’t hold out for another two or three years - they don’t have the manpower. There is a glimmer of hope in this mess…the U.S. appears to have a demand that a Peace Keeping Force be placed on what would effectively be Russian soil - a face slap for Putin. A lot has been learned from this war including the basic fact that the U.S. wasn’t remotely prepared for a large peer conflict - a critical wake up call and a a good lesson to learn at very low cost.
 

PhrogPhlyer

Two heads are better than one.
pilot
None
There is a glimmer of hope in this mess…the U.S. appears to have a demand that a Peace Keeping Force be placed on what would effectively be Russian soil - a face slap for Putin. A lot has been learned from this war including the basic fact that the U.S. wasn’t remotely prepared for a large peer conflict - a critical wake up call and a a good lesson to learn at very low cost.
Not only were we not prepared, and some could argue that was intentional, but the whole of the EU acted as if they were shocked this could have even happened. Talk about ignoring history.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Not only were we not prepared, and some could argue that was intentional, but the whole of the EU acted as if they were shocked this could have even happened. Talk about ignoring history.
Just for grins, I checked…the “Europe Under Extreme Duress” conversation here on AW goes all the way back to 2016. Many of the comments just after the Russian invasion are interesting now that time has marched on.
 

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Altogether an idiotic comment by Trump and it will remain a scar on his administration.

Even so, Europe has been saying for months that Ukraine would have to make concessions and our own defense leaders are a bit worried about ordnance stockpiles. Simple math makes it clear that the Ukrainian people can’t hold out for another two or three years - they don’t have the manpower. There is a glimmer of hope in this mess…the U.S. appears to have a demand that a Peace Keeping Force be placed on what would effectively be Russian soil - a face slap for Putin. A lot has been learned from this war including the basic fact that the U.S. wasn’t remotely prepared for a large peer conflict - a critical wake up call and a a good lesson to learn at very low cost.

The Russians are making miniscule territorial gains right now with UKR holding a tiny bit of Kursk territory. RUS economy is circling the drain...why take any foots/levers off their necks?
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
The Russians are making miniscule territorial gains right now with UKR holding a tiny bit of Kursk territory. RUS economy is circling the drain...why take any foots/levers off their necks?
I’m no longer in the intel loop, but there are signs that the Ukrainians might crack quicker than the Russians. It is a matter of manpower and population. In truth, a peace that allows the U.S. and Europe to better train and arm a revived Ukrainian military is a greater victory than bleeding out another 10,000 Russians.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
ordnance stockpiles
We give them 20 spare nukes (or maybe just tell the world we did) and the complexion of the whole situation changes.

I know, not going to happen.

A thought experiment, wonder what would happen if Ukraine did an underground nuke test, immediately announcing their secret bomb program was effective and they were now a nuke power.
 
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