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More bases added to BRAC? Oceana?
- Thread starter Dawgfan
- Start date
BRICK and BRAC
As is typical, A4s' discourse on navy tacair is so much more interesting than the arcane nature of BRAC. I was intrigued by his remarks about the A7 being a solution to a problem that did not exist. This is no BS. That was both a remarkable and insightful comment. And I can see that as a defense industry process, it continues into the present day. Is the F-22 now a solution to a problem that does not now exist?
Back to BRAC. :sleep_125
The Oceana thing came as a surprise. There is something up here. I surmise that the BRAC commissioners were a bit startled by the breadth of the DoD plan, not so much for the closures but all realignments. The Air Guard/Natl Guard realignments are in litigation. There were some other instances where the BRAC commission has signalled that they have legitimate doubts about the DoD analytical basis for their realignments.
If Oceana is seen in that context, it is not surprising that the BRAC Commission decided to "make a statement" about the future of Oceana. Oceana got the requisite 7 of 9 votes to make it on the list. This is significant and I don't want to taint it by asserting that it is just "politics as usual".
I think that encroachment is an issue in Va Beach that won't go away. And BRAC seems like an "opportunity" to address it now rather than address it without BRAC legislation to guide the process. With jointness a new virtue, the Navy has some real estate options (USAF bases) should it be compelled to scale back flight ops at Oceana. Something has to give. Either the Navy moves or the state of Virginia will have to act to constrain or mitigate the complaints from the locals. If the noise & Navy haters in Va Beach are left unchecked, the Navy will be forced to move tac air out of there.
Frankly, the forces of encroachment seem to win more than they lose. This Oceana vote puts everyone on notice that one side is seeking a resolution now rather than later.
As is typical, A4s' discourse on navy tacair is so much more interesting than the arcane nature of BRAC. I was intrigued by his remarks about the A7 being a solution to a problem that did not exist. This is no BS. That was both a remarkable and insightful comment. And I can see that as a defense industry process, it continues into the present day. Is the F-22 now a solution to a problem that does not now exist?
Back to BRAC. :sleep_125
The Oceana thing came as a surprise. There is something up here. I surmise that the BRAC commissioners were a bit startled by the breadth of the DoD plan, not so much for the closures but all realignments. The Air Guard/Natl Guard realignments are in litigation. There were some other instances where the BRAC commission has signalled that they have legitimate doubts about the DoD analytical basis for their realignments.
If Oceana is seen in that context, it is not surprising that the BRAC Commission decided to "make a statement" about the future of Oceana. Oceana got the requisite 7 of 9 votes to make it on the list. This is significant and I don't want to taint it by asserting that it is just "politics as usual".
I think that encroachment is an issue in Va Beach that won't go away. And BRAC seems like an "opportunity" to address it now rather than address it without BRAC legislation to guide the process. With jointness a new virtue, the Navy has some real estate options (USAF bases) should it be compelled to scale back flight ops at Oceana. Something has to give. Either the Navy moves or the state of Virginia will have to act to constrain or mitigate the complaints from the locals. If the noise & Navy haters in Va Beach are left unchecked, the Navy will be forced to move tac air out of there.
Frankly, the forces of encroachment seem to win more than they lose. This Oceana vote puts everyone on notice that one side is seeking a resolution now rather than later.
UInavy said:So is the rumor there that it would become NAS Moody, or just be a Naval jet base under AF control.......?
i actually just heard that on the news on my way in to work the other day. i havent heard it really talked about on base. i guess the training sqdn is going away regardless, so it doesnt really matter to us who they bring in after that.
either way it seems like they would want to keep the jets closer to the carriers. did they ever decide whether or not to keep the JFK at mayport?
USN99 said:
I don't think so, not with Russia's new fighters. You know they're going to sell them to make money. Never ever ever ever ever be on-par with your military foes (*cough*China*cough*) if you can help it, always be ahead. We all know that.
I do think the F-22 will be like the Seawolf submarine though, in that it will pave the way for cheaper, better technology (F-35 anyone?).
USN99 said:
The above thought is RIGHT ON THE MONEY ... I've worked and consulted on BRAC since 1994 and this is exactly what the issue ALWAYS boils down to.... to those who think it's really about national defense, I submit "national defense" is just a somewhat whistful, proper way of saying "politics and money". It's ALWAYS politics and money ... as I say, once in a while it's money and politics --- the priority reverses. But it never changes.
Some here believe the DoD actually makes the decisions. I hate to burst your bubble --- but they don't. They do the "grunt" work and prepare the lists and put forth the rationale(s) for base closure or realignment. That's when the politicos and bureaucrats take over. Some of you believe the DoD actually has the hammer in this process because you are in the military --- which really means you're on the periphery in the decision making. It means you have not had the opportunity to see the "real" power-brokers at work, up close. It ain't pretty, sometimes .... politics and money ... money and politics ....
In BRAC --- the military, alas, does not call the shots .....
What a waste if they close Oceana...new commissary, new exchange.....new hi-speed front gate with force protection barriers (and a flashy new sign). It seems the only ones happy about it are the moronic Citizens Concerned Against Jet Noise (CCAJN). These folks decided to buy build aroud Fentress (NAF) and Oceana. I suppose if they do close it, the Six Flags folks will come in and make it Six Flags over Oceana....more tourist crap to clog the fine tidewater.
The Whidbey Island "groups" --- about 20-40 people in total (but they do get most of the positive local press) --- are called:BigIron said:
WISE .... a.k.a. "Whidbey Islanders for a Sound Environment --- and --- CSD ... a.k.a. "Citizzens for Sound Development"
They're some of the most elitist, effete, self-indulgent, "sophisticated" left-wingers we've produced ..... you gotta love it.
And new construction? That's the way it always works. A friend was a contractor building NEW Capehart Housing @ Barber's Point NAS .... one year later it was on the closure list .... 3 years later the Mokes had overrun it, vandalized it, and trashed it. A pity ....
BigIron said:
I was down in Norfolk last week when this was announced. The local radio station morning crew was slamming the Virgiana Beach city council folks that were letting the encroachment happen. They were actually talking very reasonably about the econimic impact of the base closing. The best line was:
"Virginia Beach without Oceana will just be a glorified Nag's Head."
Sea Power
I suggest to you all that all sea power is land-based. And all land-based power flows from a source (monetary) inside the Beltway.
I would also entertain the notion that there is a cultural divide in the Navy (but probably the other services as well) between those that understand where all power emanates from and those that think some demi-god like the "skipper" or "the CAG" actually shapes the world as they see it.
Yes, an "OK, 3 wire" is a necessary virtue and a survival skill of some military value. But as the gold stripes begin to add up on the sleeves, the value of additional obligational authority (this means "budget") in the POM (this means the out years) takes on supreme value. It's a cruel reality but for those that still don't get it, how about that old cliche "No Bucks, No Buck Rogers".
To be fair, JOs still have to do what JOs have always done, be the best killers possible.
But equally, the JOs need to give those poor souls in uniform and inside the Beltway, a break. They toil for a different master than their next landing grade. :icon_smil
A4sForever said:
I suggest to you all that all sea power is land-based. And all land-based power flows from a source (monetary) inside the Beltway.
I would also entertain the notion that there is a cultural divide in the Navy (but probably the other services as well) between those that understand where all power emanates from and those that think some demi-god like the "skipper" or "the CAG" actually shapes the world as they see it.
Yes, an "OK, 3 wire" is a necessary virtue and a survival skill of some military value. But as the gold stripes begin to add up on the sleeves, the value of additional obligational authority (this means "budget") in the POM (this means the out years) takes on supreme value. It's a cruel reality but for those that still don't get it, how about that old cliche "No Bucks, No Buck Rogers".
To be fair, JOs still have to do what JOs have always done, be the best killers possible.
But equally, the JOs need to give those poor souls in uniform and inside the Beltway, a break. They toil for a different master than their next landing grade. :icon_smil
TransvestFO
Seven years of college, down the drain.
Sorry for the long post. There are several articles I found today on the same topic...
Bush Asks To Present Cecil's Case
(FLORIDA TIMES-UNION, 3 AUG 05) ... By Gregory Piatt and J. Taylor Rushing
Hours after members of the base closing commission toured a Navy jet base in Virginia on Monday, Gov. Jeb Bush faxed a letter asking to make a presentation next week about re-establishing Cecil Field as a master jet base in Jacksonville.
The Navy officials at Oceana Naval Air Station in Virginia Beach told the visiting four commission members that there is no other military facility on the East Coast that can replace the jet base. But that was before Bush wrote that Cecil Field is the best alternative if the commission shutters Oceana.
"Cecil Field is the last site on the eastern seaboard capable of accommodating the Oceana mission and personnel," Bush wrote to Anthony Principi, the Base Realignment and Closure Commission chairman.
In the three-page letter, Bush requested that the commission visit Cecil Field, now the Cecil Commerce Center. The governor also asked to make an official presentation about the former Navy master jet base, which was closed in 1999 under the 1993 BRAC round, at the Aug. 10 commission hearing in Washington.
"We're trying to make a presentation so they can at least get all of the information in front of them," Bush told the Times-Union Tuesday.
The BRAC commission will have a hearing Thursday on Oceana. It will submit its final decision to President Bush on Sept. 8.
A site visit and a hearing for Cecil would be the first of many steps to re-establish the base, which was open for 50 years. Since an alternative to Oceana needs to be found in the near future, the Cecil Field proposal would be competing against a new base that would need to be built and could cost more than $1 billion.
A recent Jacksonville City Hall study said it would cost the Navy $250 million to re-establish Cecil.
"[That's] far from the billion-dollar estimate projected to build a new, future master jet base from scratch," Bush wrote.
Bush's letter touched on the encroaching development that plagues Oceana and the Navy's nearby Fentress auxiliary landing field. This has frustrated the Navy so much that the Pentagon looked at finding a replacement when it was compiling which bases to close and realign earlier this year.
Navy officials have said Oceana can only last another five or six years before another alternative base can be found.
"Cecil, in retrospect, probably shouldn't have been closed because now they've got this challenge," Bush told the Times-Union on Tuesday. "And if they don't make the decision for Cecil now, there may not be an option for the Navy 10 years from now."
Much of the problems with locals at Oceana have to do with noise from the Navy jet fighters that land at full throttle, said John Pike, a defense analyst with the military Web site GlobalSecurity.org, which is based in Alexandria, Va. Many locals have built homes in the flight paths and pilots have to alter normal flying patterns.
"There are four times as many jet fighters at that base than there are at an Air Force fighter base," Pike said Tuesday. "So you are going to have a lot of noise."
The Navy looked at Moody Air Force Base in Valdosta, Ga., but the Air Force didn't want to turn the base over. Last month the BRAC commission also looked at Moody but decided not to move the Navy planes to Valdosta.
That's when Florida and Jacksonville officials jumped in and offered Cecil Field as an alternative site at a commission hearing last month in New Orleans. In the letter, Bush also refers to Jacksonville's Whitehouse Field as an alternative to Fentress.
Improvements have been made with federal, state and city funds since Cecil Field was closed, according to the Bush letter. About $133 million has been spent to upgrade the control tower, eight hangars, utilities, sewers and roads at the former base, Bush said. Jacksonville also has secured $130 million for a high-speed road to nearby Interstate 10.
The state and city have worked closely to improve Cecil Field and protect Whitehouse Field from encroachment, Bush wrote.
If Cecil were re-established as a jet base, it would be close to the support facilities at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Bush wrote. There also is a public/private initiative to build housing for the Navy, the governor added.
In the Times-Union interview, Bush pledged state money and expertise to support the Cecil bid and said he will consult with Senate President Tom Lee and House Speaker Allan Bense on what the state can offer financially.
Specifically, Bush said "the whole spectrum of economic development incentives" could be on the table, including funds for housing and relocation costs. The governor said his office also is already working "hand-in-glove" with Mayor John Peyton's staff to research buying out and relocating the business leases at Cecil and to craft legal agreements to fend off encroachment of development.
U.S. Sen. Mel Martinez, R-Fla., said it was terrific how the community has responded on short notice to put Cecil Field forward as an alternative.
"The governor and mayor deserve great credit for reacting to it quickly and presenting a forceful case of why Cecil is the solution to a Navy problem. ..." Martinez said Tuesday. "If Oceana gets closed, it's not a long shot."
I said that Cecil being closed made that decision water under the bridge, I guess I was wrong. I really hope that GWB makes right a poor political decision and reopens Cecil. It is a great base in a fantastic city (people actually support the military in Jax) and, we as tax payers deserve to have this money saving option examined.
Bush Asks To Present Cecil's Case
(FLORIDA TIMES-UNION, 3 AUG 05) ... By Gregory Piatt and J. Taylor Rushing
Hours after members of the base closing commission toured a Navy jet base in Virginia on Monday, Gov. Jeb Bush faxed a letter asking to make a presentation next week about re-establishing Cecil Field as a master jet base in Jacksonville.
The Navy officials at Oceana Naval Air Station in Virginia Beach told the visiting four commission members that there is no other military facility on the East Coast that can replace the jet base. But that was before Bush wrote that Cecil Field is the best alternative if the commission shutters Oceana.
"Cecil Field is the last site on the eastern seaboard capable of accommodating the Oceana mission and personnel," Bush wrote to Anthony Principi, the Base Realignment and Closure Commission chairman.
In the three-page letter, Bush requested that the commission visit Cecil Field, now the Cecil Commerce Center. The governor also asked to make an official presentation about the former Navy master jet base, which was closed in 1999 under the 1993 BRAC round, at the Aug. 10 commission hearing in Washington.
"We're trying to make a presentation so they can at least get all of the information in front of them," Bush told the Times-Union Tuesday.
The BRAC commission will have a hearing Thursday on Oceana. It will submit its final decision to President Bush on Sept. 8.
A site visit and a hearing for Cecil would be the first of many steps to re-establish the base, which was open for 50 years. Since an alternative to Oceana needs to be found in the near future, the Cecil Field proposal would be competing against a new base that would need to be built and could cost more than $1 billion.
A recent Jacksonville City Hall study said it would cost the Navy $250 million to re-establish Cecil.
"[That's] far from the billion-dollar estimate projected to build a new, future master jet base from scratch," Bush wrote.
Bush's letter touched on the encroaching development that plagues Oceana and the Navy's nearby Fentress auxiliary landing field. This has frustrated the Navy so much that the Pentagon looked at finding a replacement when it was compiling which bases to close and realign earlier this year.
Navy officials have said Oceana can only last another five or six years before another alternative base can be found.
"Cecil, in retrospect, probably shouldn't have been closed because now they've got this challenge," Bush told the Times-Union on Tuesday. "And if they don't make the decision for Cecil now, there may not be an option for the Navy 10 years from now."
Much of the problems with locals at Oceana have to do with noise from the Navy jet fighters that land at full throttle, said John Pike, a defense analyst with the military Web site GlobalSecurity.org, which is based in Alexandria, Va. Many locals have built homes in the flight paths and pilots have to alter normal flying patterns.
"There are four times as many jet fighters at that base than there are at an Air Force fighter base," Pike said Tuesday. "So you are going to have a lot of noise."
The Navy looked at Moody Air Force Base in Valdosta, Ga., but the Air Force didn't want to turn the base over. Last month the BRAC commission also looked at Moody but decided not to move the Navy planes to Valdosta.
That's when Florida and Jacksonville officials jumped in and offered Cecil Field as an alternative site at a commission hearing last month in New Orleans. In the letter, Bush also refers to Jacksonville's Whitehouse Field as an alternative to Fentress.
Improvements have been made with federal, state and city funds since Cecil Field was closed, according to the Bush letter. About $133 million has been spent to upgrade the control tower, eight hangars, utilities, sewers and roads at the former base, Bush said. Jacksonville also has secured $130 million for a high-speed road to nearby Interstate 10.
The state and city have worked closely to improve Cecil Field and protect Whitehouse Field from encroachment, Bush wrote.
If Cecil were re-established as a jet base, it would be close to the support facilities at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Bush wrote. There also is a public/private initiative to build housing for the Navy, the governor added.
In the Times-Union interview, Bush pledged state money and expertise to support the Cecil bid and said he will consult with Senate President Tom Lee and House Speaker Allan Bense on what the state can offer financially.
Specifically, Bush said "the whole spectrum of economic development incentives" could be on the table, including funds for housing and relocation costs. The governor said his office also is already working "hand-in-glove" with Mayor John Peyton's staff to research buying out and relocating the business leases at Cecil and to craft legal agreements to fend off encroachment of development.
U.S. Sen. Mel Martinez, R-Fla., said it was terrific how the community has responded on short notice to put Cecil Field forward as an alternative.
"The governor and mayor deserve great credit for reacting to it quickly and presenting a forceful case of why Cecil is the solution to a Navy problem. ..." Martinez said Tuesday. "If Oceana gets closed, it's not a long shot."
I said that Cecil being closed made that decision water under the bridge, I guess I was wrong. I really hope that GWB makes right a poor political decision and reopens Cecil. It is a great base in a fantastic city (people actually support the military in Jax) and, we as tax payers deserve to have this money saving option examined.
That's funny .... and sad at the same time. Millions spent shutting down Cecil (and Barber's Point) --- and now they are talking about re-opening (them)??? BRAC and bases: these days it's all about encroachment, public pressure (to close OR to open), politicians, and or course, M-O-N-E-Y . Not really the "needs" of the service. It never ends ....
A4sForever said:
Barber's Point is atrocious, as I'm sure you know. My stepbrother works there as ATC (think it's called Kapolei Municipal Airport now?), and we drove to the beach on what used to be the base... completely overrun with vegetation... Hawaii hasn't taken care of it all. What a waste.
Yeah, the Moke's have trashed what they could get hold of on Barber's (Kapolei) .... they even drove into the "quick-stop" one night and ripped the ATM out of the wall and drove off with it. Much theft and vandalism --- just mindless rampant destruction --- almost looked like a nihilistic "pay-back" to 'da Man, Bruddah for all those years of ..... what?? .... being held down .....Fly Navy said:
???? I'm sorry to tell the hard truth ... but if the Stars and Stripes had not flown over the Territory for the past 100 years the place would look like Fiji --- i.e., a third world country.The Navy finally started putting up chain link fencing around all the hangars ... just in case they returned ... and the destruction (maybe self-destruction? ) of the once fine facility (manacured lawns, white curbs, etc. ) that was offered to the State of Hawaii has tapered off of late ....