No more Solo X-C for IFS students?

[rat0879]

My mistake

Not at all professional for instructors to talk about a student to a student, less for a student to divulge such data on a public board

Ok, you are right. I deleted it so if you remove your quote it's gone. My bust.

 

[highlyrandom]

I technically stall every time I land, right? Helps you stay on the ground. Check me on this, but I think it's far better to land fast, break the gear, come in careeing side to side and the like, than it is to be too slow and underpowered anywhere above 20'. Early civil aviation fatalities were rare unless you focused on airplanes hitting the ground in a spin. The stall isn't so bad, it's the incipient spin that kills you (9000-12000' per minute??), which is why it's better to slam into the runway whilst still actually flying than to try and be gentle with the gear when you're already dirty and slow. If IFS teaches nothing else, it should undo a student's natural urge to pull the nose up before the plane is ready for it...I've been in a car crash at 45 mph relative, and I'd rather do that again than feel the pre-spin-departure wobble down low.

 

[Fly Navy]

Last I checked, modern airplanes don't enter spins automatically when they stall.

 

[highlyrandom]

They don't enter steady-state autorotative spins, but they can undergo a rapid departure to either side...as you've no doubt experienced in the approach turn T-34 stall...followed by an uncontrolled (not necessarily "spin") ground impact. Hence the importance of keeping the wings level and the ball centered. Military aircraft are usually well-powered enough to muscle out of the slow-flight stage, but your average Cessna isn't, unless you catch it early that you're too slow down low and get the stick forward...now I could be wrong, but either way I was specifically referring to the incipient stage and not a developed spin.

 

[Fly Navy]

They don't enter steady-state autorotative spins, but they can undergo a rapid departure to either side...as you've no doubt experienced in the approach turn T-34 stall...followed by an uncontrolled (not necessarily "spin") ground impact. Hence the importance of keeping the wings level and the ball centered. Military aircraft are usually well-powered enough to muscle out of the slow-flight stage, but your average Cessna isn't, unless you catch it early that you're too slow down low and get the stick forward...now I could be wrong, but either way I was specifically referring to the incipient stage and not a developed spin.

Ok, I get what you're steering towards. You're talking about roll-off and other strange properties some aircraft exhibit. T-34 ATS was pretty benign in most aircraft, you just got the impression of roll-off because of the AOB. Though some did stall very funny... probably bent aircraft.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Ok guys, here's a news flash. Aviation is a dangerous lifestyle!!

Let's be very specific here. General aviation and commericial avition is not dangerous. Military aviation maybe so. You could certainly make the argument that military aviation is more dangerous than it isn't. But not general or commercial aviation. This thread reminds me of a quote I memorized over a decade ago as I was going through my own training for my license.

"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, but to a greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any careless, incapacity, or neglect."

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Looking back on it, we can't believe they let us have a plane by ourselves and take it X-C at like ~18-20 hours of flight time. I'm sure it varies a bit, but I went through IFS at Quantico and I did not know a SINGLE emergency procedure. Not one. All I was taught was how to take off, basic airwork, and how to land (somewhat). Basically, the bare bones crap you need if EVERYTHING works perfectly throughout the whole flight.

It took you 18-20 hours to learn how to land? If you really think you didn't learn EP's, then why not? Did you not have access to the flight manual for the aircraft model you were flying? Is it the instructors resonsibility to make sure you learn EP's, or yours?

 

[TrunkMonkey]

When I was in IFS, I was doing the Engine Shutdown checklist in the C-172 and went to lean the fuel mixture. Doing this caused the lever to come flying out of the dashboard and into the backseat. I had to turn the fuel supply to "off" in order to get the propeller to shut down. Fortunately, this happened to me on the ground and with an instructor in the plane, because I don't think anyone ever mentioned anything to me about emergency procedures. Yeah, they were written in a loose-leaf binder in the back of the plane, but we never memorized them. With the extreme lack of aviation experience I had back then, it never occured to me to worry about things like that.
And I went to a good IFS school. It just seems like civil and military aviation work off very different mindsets in a lot of regards.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Last I checked, modern airplanes don't enter spins automatically when they stall.

No, but they sure as hell will if your controls are not coordinated. Trying stalling with left aileron and right rudder. Depending on the a/c, the aircraft is quite inclined to enter a spin...in this case, to the right. Classic spin scenario....a/c on downwind a bit too fast, and either enters base too tight or doesn't recognize the proper time to turn...a/c ends up over-correcting to get on final, adding just a tad more rudder than necessary. Stalling speed increases with load factor (angle of bank) and before you know it, a/c is in a semi-developed spin 900-1200 ft agl....bad day.

 

[Fly Navy]

No, but they sure as hell will if your controls are not coordinated. Trying stalling with left aileron and right rudder. Depending on the a/c, the aircraft is quite inclined to enter a spin...in this case, to the right. Classic spin scenario....a/c on downwind a bit too fast, and either enters base too tight or doesn't recognize the proper time to turn...a/c ends up over-correcting to get on final, adding just a tad more rudder than necessary. Stalling speed increases with load factor (angle of bank) and before you know it, a/c is in a semi-developed spin 900-1200 ft agl....bad day.

Yes of course, I was just pointing out that saying entering a stall will cause you to spin is misleading. Bit more to it than that, as we've discussed.

 

[jamnww]

It took you 18-20 hours to learn how to land? If you really think you didn't learn EP's, then why not? Did you not have access to the flight manual for the aircraft model you were flying? Is it the instructors resonsibility to make sure you learn EP's, or yours?

When I was in IFS I had never even heard of an Emergency Procedure and it was never mentioned. The only procedure that we went over at all was for an engine failure and even then it was only briefly. We were always told that if something bad happens "make it to a runway and land" with no mention of how this was supposed to be done. Likewise we were never given any information (detailed at least) about the aircraft and its components. If you think about it they really don't have the time to really get you to "know" the aircraft.

You have 25 flight hours total, you have to solo by 15 hrs. We started flying before ANY ground school and ground school when it started the next week consisted of about 20 hours of instruction. During ground school they covered everything from basic Areo / Weather / Airport setups / communications / and many other topics. I don't know about you but I spend 4 good weeks of API just to learn the basics, 2+ weeks at Primary to get to know the T34 and THEN the next few months to learn the manuevers and instrument uses...

There just isn't enough time in IFS to go into detail and the students don't know any better because most have had 0 flight experience. Now if a winged Naval aviator was trying to make the argument that they never made him / her learn EPs I would be with you but not for IFS students...they are still in their infancy

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Yes of course, I was just pointing out that saying entering a stall will cause you to spin is misleading. Bit more to it than that, as we've discussed.

Ahh, gotcha now

 

[Fly Navy]

When I was in IFS I had never even heard of an Emergency Procedure and it was never mentioned. The only procedure that we went over at all was for an engine failure and even then it was only briefly. We were always told that if something bad happens "make it to a runway and land" with no mention of how this was supposed to be done. Likewise we were never given any information (detailed at least) about the aircraft and its components. If you think about it they really don't have the time to really get you to "know" the aircraft.

That's a failure of the school, a failure of the student, or a combination of both. We practiced engine-out all the time (biggest EP for a Cessna), I was quized on random parts of the aircraft, and whatnot. Where'd you go to IFS?

 

[squeeze]

I technically stall every time I land, right?

You might, but I don't.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

You might, but I don't.

Fvck, you aren't even flying when you land. You might as well be a hot air balloon pilot.