No more Solo X-C for IFS students?

[wink]

This can't surprise anyone. Can you say "ORM chit for the weekend"? The Navy has become wildly risk averse. Too many people worried about covering their butts. The highly complex risk analysis conducted by Bubba proves a mishap rate well below that found in the fleet and comparable with the Training Command. What is the problem?

 

[wink]

The point is that in over 30 years with aviation and training systems. Whenever there was an incident we did a stand down. Which when I was young and hot blooded I thought "Here we go again". Yet amazing amazing we always found that there was a genuine flaw it what we were doing that hadn't been uncovered. That 100% guys, re-evaluations have saved lives. From hand grenade training in boot camp to advanced tactics, it's unfortunate that someone has to have a "mistake" before we find out, but that's the nature of the business. True no system is foolproof or will ever be, but it is our task to try to make it that way. A little more honesty in training evals would be nice, but everybody wants to just get it over and get in the sky. Good luck to all.

All true regarding safety stand downs and evaluations that lead to improved safety. What we have here is more then a safety standown to evaluate the mishap and review established procedures. Without a full investigation of the mishap or the IFS program a change has been made to policy and procedure. This change will cost the Navy more money and may adversely effect training. Someone thought there was value to soloing in IFS when the program was devised. Now, without extensive evaluation, someone decides it no longer has training value, and in fact, will encure more expense to the Navy to curtail it. Lunacy!!

 

[codtanker]

Wink, you think that the Navy watches their butts. Man you should see what the Air Force does. Cast iron butt casts I'm telling you.

I must admit I'm out of the loop somewhat on the IFS program. Is this a program that is completely run by the Navy at a civilian field or just funded for upcoming SNAs to get some hours in the Cessna's? If it is just funded then why can't an individual pay for their own cross country? Does the IFS actually take them all the way to a private liscense. I was under the impression that it may not actually take them to 35+ hrs.

And before I get pounced upon those who don't want to pay for their own cross country, before this program was even considered I payed completed my private in 2 1/2 months after commissioning on my own.

 

[redmariner97]

According to the IFS notice I received there are still 2 solo hours involved in completing this training. It mentions that only the cross country will be a "ghost solo" flight.

 

[TheBubba]

I must admit I'm out of the loop somewhat on the IFS program. Is this a program that is completely run by the Navy at a civilian field or just funded for upcoming SNAs to get some hours in the Cessna's? If it is just funded then why can't an individual pay for their own cross country? Does the IFS actually take them all the way to a private liscense. I was under the impression that it may not actually take them to 35+ hrs.

IFS is paid by the Navy, conducted at civilian pilot schools. You pretty much hit the head on the nail, cod... IFS is designed to give SNAs and SNFOs an intro to flying and navigating so that they have some comfort level the first time they step into a T-whatever. It does not lead to a PPL, but the hours you get in IFS can be put towards a PPL.

 

[SuperFly]

Yup. Every damn time. There was a crash at Milton a couple years ago during IFS. They pulled the plug on that flight school. Everytime someone does something and gets hurt... they don't think "gee, this is why, let's not do it again. Lesson learned." or which is the case most of the time "this person was an idiot", instead they think "oh my god, stop everything! ban it!"

Watch what you say man. The pilot that died two years ago in IFS at Milton was a close college friend of mine. To say that "he was an idiot" was woefully wrong.

Everyone that is picked for flight school is a top notch guy. Kenny one was one of the best. His short training in IFS, I believe, was just not enough though for him to understand a few basic principles that ultimately would have saved his life.

You can't tell me that 10-15 hours is enough time in any plane to safely fly it solo (for new pilots). Your instructors may make you feel like your ready, but lets be realistic here. The first time you walk up to that plane, your a walking ORM matrix. Many of you can remember your first solo in the T-34C in the old program. How nervous were you? Were you really prepared? For me, that was over 4 years ago, and I can honestly say I'm glad I didn't meet the same fate as my friend tragically did.

 

[Fly Navy]

Jesus fvcking christ dude, READING COMPREHENSION. I never called him an idiot. I'm sorry your friend died, but YOU are the one going off the hook. Read what was typed. I'm sick of this sh!t on this forum. Not only that, but I wasn't talking flying specifically. Some people in the past year have done some GENIUS fucking things to kill themselves or hurt themselves.

And you're right, your first solo is an ORM nightmare, but it's a confidence booster. It's there for a reason. Yes, there is risk, but that is flying.

 

[SuperFly]

Jesus fvcking christ dude, READING COMPREHENSION. I never called him an idiot. I'm sorry your friend died, but YOU are the one going off the hook. Read what was typed. I'm sick of this sh!t on this forum. Not only that, but I wasn't talking flying specifically. Some people in the past year have done some GENIUS fucking things to kill themselves or hurt themselves.

And you're right, your first solo is an ORM nightmare, but it's a confidence booster. It's there for a reason. Yes, there is risk, but that is flying.

Dude you really need to write more clearly if you think I am misinterpreting your post. I have read and re-read it and still come to the same conclusion as when I wrote my response.

So what exactly are you trying to say?

 

[Fly Navy]

Dude you really need to write more clearly if you think I am misinterpreting your post. I have read and re-read it and still come to the same conclusion as when I wrote my response.

So what exactly are you trying to say?

Ok, sometimes sh!t happens and the person still did everything they were supposed to. Maybe the SOP was wrong, the NATOPS needs change, etc. Maybe it's not even flying related... maybe they had all the required safety equipment on for... skydiving or whatever and they made a greasespot in the ground because something failed. On the flip side, sometimes people do stupid things to get themselves hurt. If 1% of the people are doing something so dumb, and so out of safety precaution, do you kneejerk over it?

Not once did I say your friend was stupid. I mentioned his crash because the Navy kneejerked over it. Then I went on to say basically sometimes accidents happen, and sometimes people do stupid shit. I didn't say your friend died because he was stupid. Clearer?

 

[theduke]

The Navy has become wildly risk averse. Too many people worried about covering their butts.

Yep.

fucking CYA factor

 

[flashypants]

^, ^^ i concur

^^^yeah, i just got that word, too. stalled on takeoff.

i've always thought the IFS program pushed some people to solo too quickly.

I couldn't disagree more. I agree with the "walking ORM matrix" comment in a previous post, and I will say that, looking back, it's absolutely INSANE that I solo'd cross-country after about 20 hours of flight training (scares me to think about it), BUT....

Flight training is all about challenging SNA's to excel. If it weren't, it would take 5 years to train Naval Aviators. That's not the business we're in. The challenges in flight school all serve their individual purpose, and the collective purpose is to send winged aviators to the fleet to fly naval aircraft.

That said, what do you want? Baby gloves? You want 100 hours before your first solo? You want your instructors to baby you along, do all of your thinking and training for you, ride with you on your "solo"....??? Join the Air Force. Sack up, accept the challenges, prepare yourself beyond what you see fit, and (barring the unforeseen EP) you'll be FINE.

IFS pushes people? Have you even started Navy flight training? IFS was a fvcking paid vacation.

 

[Brett327]

Dude you really need to write more clearly if you think I am misinterpreting your post. I have read and re-read it and still come to the same conclusion as when I wrote my response.

So what exactly are you trying to say?

Well, for the record, I re-read it as well and have no idea how you could have possibly come to the conclusion that you did. I recommend "Hooked on Phonics" and a chill pill.

Brett

 

[BOMBSonHAWKEYES]

The concept of IFS is a good one, but the implementation of it is what makes it a joke. Being told to not land until 2.2 hours had expired on my last solo flight might illustrate the state of mind of an IFS school - get the students through, and cash that check.

Everyone that is picked for flight school is a top notch guy.

I disagree. Threre are many shining stars, but like any program, there are some that aren't.

 

[TheBubba]

The concept of IFS is a good one, but the implementation of it is what makes it a joke. Being told to not land until 2.2 hours had expired on my last solo flight might illustrate the state of mind of an IFS school - get the students through, and cash that check.

Good point. while NFO IFS is a bit different, there's the same mentality. Tho I didn't see it alot at my school, I did hear about it from friends.

When you give a 1 to 2 -hr window in which to have a check-ride and start a solo, those tenths of an hour become oh so critical.

I think the time constraints on SNAs going through IFS needs to be re-examined and maybe a little more stick time given prior to the solo, and maybe more emphasis on the EP's for the aircraft.

I know my CFI didn't spend alot of time going over EP's on the C-172, but I'm a SNFO and never had the plane solo.

 

[theduke]

That said, what do you want? Baby gloves? You want 100 hours before your first solo? You want your instructors to baby you along, do all of your thinking and training for you, ride with you on your "solo"....??? Join the Air Force. Sack up, accept the challenges, prepare yourself beyond what you see fit, and (barring the unforeseen EP) you'll be FINE.

IFS pushes people? Have you even started Navy flight training? IFS was a fvcking paid vacation.

1. No, the last thing I want is kid gloves. You'll see in the rest of the thread that I said I think we get too much of that in a lot of ways under CNATRA. Furthermore, not only did I not join the USAF, I joined the USMC.

2. Yes, IFS was a paid vacation. API was only about a half notch more difficult. For whatever it matters, I'm in primary right now.

3. IFS doesn't push people in terms of difficulty. The program/schools push people to solo too quickly, though. I saw a lot of shirttails on the walls at IFS saying "ENS John Smith soloed N12345G on 17 July at 8.5 hours"

That, in my opinion, is too fast. Yeah, most people can probably handle the airplane well enough to not fuck anything up as long as everything goes well...and yeah, you can check all the FAA-mandated pre-solo boxes in that amount of time...but that doesn't make it prudent to solo at 8.5 hours.