He was in a bag and had wings. They didn't know the difference. IIRC he had gone through some abbreviated SNA syllabus too including some rotary wing time.
Still not a good idea but...
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Proceedings Takes a Look at the Culture of Naval Aviation
- Thread starter DanMa1156
- Start date
He was in a bag and had wings. They didn't know the difference. IIRC he had gone through some abbreviated SNA syllabus too including some rotary wing time.
Still not a good idea but...
Meh, again, nothing new that hasn't been discussed here. While I think there has been too much infiltration of PC BS in the military as a whole, I don't fear for our culture. We can still have a ridiculously awesome time, get drunk, piss off SWOs, and do our thing. Articles like this have a bit of hyperbole. Take for example his comments on integrating women. Last time I checked we are coming up on almost 20 years of the Risk Rule being abolished. While women are still a definite minority (and probably will stay that way, but who cares!?!?!), it's not like women flying planes is a novel concept that will doom us.
We also ignore the fact often that being military aviators does not excuse ridiculous behavior sometimes. Yeah, I understand the need to blow off steam, and those who have met me in person will agree I am all about that, but common sense needs to prevail. I saw an article recently (too tired right now to find it) coming from a guy who worked as a bouncer at a bar and saw tons of military members be retarded, using the excuse that they had just deployed so they could do what they want. As a sometimes drunken asshole, I think what we do does not give us an excuse to be drunken assholes.
We also ignore the fact often that being military aviators does not excuse ridiculous behavior sometimes. Yeah, I understand the need to blow off steam, and those who have met me in person will agree I am all about that, but common sense needs to prevail. I saw an article recently (too tired right now to find it) coming from a guy who worked as a bouncer at a bar and saw tons of military members be retarded, using the excuse that they had just deployed so they could do what they want. As a sometimes drunken asshole, I think what we do does not give us an excuse to be drunken assholes.
Backwards?
You've oversimplified the problem and made some broad generalizations. I too read the article that quoted the bouncer - the examples used in that article were quite a bit different from the problem of JO's avoiding the O'club. Apples and oranges. I also think its important to remember that even within Naval Aviation there are several different community cultures. Though dated, he writes from the perspective of the TACAIR community.
In the 10 years that I've been at NUW I've seen the O'club go from the place to hang out on summer Friday's to a place where we have safety stand downs and wives club meetings. The bar is now more of a museum to days gone by than anything else. One of the biggest complaints that people had FOR YEARS was that there were no cab company's allowed on base (thanks overzealous base security) and the MAs sat a block away from the club waiting to pull people over (watched it happen). Why would anyone put themselves in that environment? Just two months ago the base finally reached an agreement to allow two cab companies on base. Just two months ago the base decided to have a standing reservation at the BOQ for someone to crash if they'd drank to much. Just in the nick of time right....?
All of that being said, the zero defect mentality is the culprit and has to stop. We'll end up with a FIGHTING force full of people who are all too skilled at saying sorry and none to skilled at killing bad people.
Unfortunately you're correct in one respect, nothing new.
There are no cab companies in Kingsville. As a result we have a couple of duty vans, and a team of duty drivers to haul your ass back to your house/apartment/bungalow after a night at the club. Unfortunately it seems that the only time the club is a good place to go is for winging parties. I wish that would change.
Backwards?
You're gonna argue with the SecNav? Good luck.
Fucking A!
I think Lehman weakens his "zero defect" argument when he uses DUIs as an example of one of the zero defects that can kill an officer's career. It's one thing if you screw up a NATOPS check or the ARO audit as a young aviator, it's another thing all together if you get a DUI. You can prang a bird and still progress provided you weren't doing something stupid. But saying that kicking people out for getting DUIs is starving us of warfighters is a little thin in my opinion. You might as well say that we should we keep one-time meth users.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Pags, while you have a point, to a point..
What other career, except maybe Airline pilot is DUI = DONE.
IMHO, there is a BIG difference between a guy getting popped for a .08 after 2 beers leaving the club (that you could not get a cab from), and one who has a .34 and is so shitfaced they don't remember crashing the car. (had one in my command).
But in Zero-Tolerance Land, it's binary. Same as being off by $10 on the ARO Audit might as well have been skimming 1% off the top to the tune of $10,000.
What other career, except maybe Airline pilot is DUI = DONE.
IMHO, there is a BIG difference between a guy getting popped for a .08 after 2 beers leaving the club (that you could not get a cab from), and one who has a .34 and is so shitfaced they don't remember crashing the car. (had one in my command).
But in Zero-Tolerance Land, it's binary. Same as being off by $10 on the ARO Audit might as well have been skimming 1% off the top to the tune of $10,000.
True, but at least the K-Bar is an epically good place to go for winging parties. I'd be surprised if there are any wilder wingings in Naval aviation these days than TW-2's.
When it comes to wingings, TW-1/2 can both rage pretty well. TW-5 doesn't do a half bad job either...those helo bubbas know how to party.
Not really unless you're caught at the airport. If you report it to the FAA properly there are hoops to jump through but you'll keep your license, medical and job.
I think the extent to which a command takes something like an ARO audit depends a lot on the command climate. Also, I think you'd be hard pressed to show that a screwed up audit specifically tubed a guys career. If someone screws up the ARO audit as an O2 and they get a P as an O2 they still have plenty of time to improve their performance to get that departing fitrep.
While not as publicized as the Military or Airlines, there are plenty of other careers (politician excluded) where something like a DUI could hurt your chances of moving upward. To an outside it might not seem like a big deal, but if you have career aspirations in other highly competitive fields a DUI and the lack of judgement it shows could be a make-or-break when it comes to something like making VP, partner, etc.
Since Sailors are also held accountable for DUIs, Officers receiving DUIs demonstrates a lack of leadership the same as an O failing a PFA. Like it or not, Big Navy made the decision that it was going to take a stand on DUIs and decided that there was no tolerance for it. Maybe if we were in a huge war and all bodies were needed it'd be a different song, but that's not the world we live in. I wasn't in when the policy was made, but I'm sure a lot of this stems from the deglamorization of alcohol policy. The Navy wanted leaders who weren't encouraging drinking either willfully or through their own behavior.
No one should be surprised by a .08 DUI being the same as a .34. That's the guidance the COs have to live with, same as with drugs. You could argue there's a world of difference between spice and heroin, but it's all the same for the Navy. If you're drinking anywhere, on base or off, you always run the risk of getting a DUI the moment you get behind the wheel of a car. At some point you have to make a decision as to what's more important to you: drinking and driving, regardless of the amount; or flying navy. If flying Navy is that important, then you it shouldn't be too hard to make sure you have a good way to get home. Does planning appropriately make us a bunch of non-hackers when it comes to combat or is that sort of decision the same as a good contingency plan for a combat flight? I tend to think the latter. Good tactical aviators wouldn't fly in to combat without a solid plan and they shouldn't go partying without a good one either.
^ words. Can't speak for others, but I've certainly not mean to imply that DUIs are ok. Your point about the need for equity in treatment for Os and Es WRT DUIs is valid. But perhaps if we weren't making it so damned hard for our Sailors to stay Navy (PTS, ERBs, etc), we wouldn't be using DUIs as a force shaping mechanism the same way we now use the PFA. DUIs are bad. We can all agree on that. Good people also F up. I think we can all agree on that.
The deglamorization of alcohol rings very hollow with me when pitched by men who grew up in Subic, fondly recall driving home with a cigarette and two fingers of scotch, and fostered an environment that arguably could have contributed to Hook '91. But now booze is bad admiral?
Speaking of Hook... Best wishes to all who could make it this year. There have been some really good topics on AW lately that could be parlayed into interesting questions for the flag panel....
The deglamorization of alcohol rings very hollow with me when pitched by men who grew up in Subic, fondly recall driving home with a cigarette and two fingers of scotch, and fostered an environment that arguably could have contributed to Hook '91. But now booze is bad admiral?
Speaking of Hook... Best wishes to all who could make it this year. There have been some really good topics on AW lately that could be parlayed into interesting questions for the flag panel....
Zero tolerance requires zero thinking and zero career risk on the "leadership " side so it's an easy, dumb, choice in all matters. The "but I had no choice because of zero tolerence" leadership cop out has permiated all aspects of our lives from the topic at hand to some 7th grader drawing a gun in school or patting a female (or male!) classmate on the butt.