Proceedings Takes a Look at the Culture of Naval Aviation

[Jim123]

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/09/navy-the-sullivans-co-sacked-090711w/

I'm stuck on the part that they missed. Sure, I'm relieved to read that no one was hurt and in this case I'm glad for the fact that their aim sucked, but what gives? Did we swap the gunnery crew with the assholes from the ship in Spaceballs?

 

[Fallonflyr]

Whether you agree with it or not, in Big Navy's mind JOs are always striking for Command until proven otherwise. We all know that the party line is that command is the ultimate goal. So, with that Big Navy's thought process of every JO being a striker for FO/GO and that they don't want FO/GOs or O-5 level COs with a DUI on their record, then it makes perfect sense to cull them from the herd. Is this what Pags actually believes should happen? No, but it's the world that I live in.

It's fantastic that your CO stuck his neck out for you and it's good that you learned from your mistakes and didn't fuck him for backing you. For every guy like you there's another guy who thinks he just proved that the rules don't apply to him and he can do whatever he wants. Like I said in my post above, taking discretion on the matter away from COs ensures a uniform policy. You'd be singing a different tune if your CO had been a teetotaler who had made it his personal mission to deglamorize alcohol.

As far as I can tell, there are three jobs left in this world where you can party, booze, wreck hotels, and run your mouth in public with no ramifications:
1. rock/movie star
2. pro athlete
3. politician
Jobs where you'll get fired for DUI:
-law enforcement
-teacher
-any job that might require you to operate a vehicle; bus driver, trashman, cabbie, etc
-since it's considered a misdemeanor and is required to be reported on a job application, the presence of a misdemeanor on your record could make you less competitive. Basically, it's used as a screening tool by employers. Also, failure to report a misdemeanor and then have it come up in a background check is also bad.

In the civilian world, you might not get fired as a lawyer/doctor/businessman for a DUI, but your chances of ever getting past middle management just got a whole lot slimmer. For better or worse, the civilian world doesn't play by our "up or out" rules. Unfortunately, like I said above, as far as Big Navy is concerned, we're all striking for Admiral.

Will DUIs get you fired in all civilian jobs? No. But we also don't work in the civilian world.

Airline CEO is job where a DUI won't hurt you....see US Airways "Dougwieser" Parker.

 

[Pugs]

The other side of zero tolerance is that ensures that a policy is applied uniformly. It erases any suspicion of favoritism or cronism.

Nope - That's another leadership cop out. I have seen favoritism and cronyism inside and outside the Navy and it is readily apparent to everyone up and down the chain when it happens. Good leaders have dealt with it when they have seen it and bad leaders have not. Virtually everyone has a boss and you never get to step back as a leader and assume the people below you have acted altruistically.

I used to assume people were going to do the right thing for the command and the country and I have been bitten in the ass. Now I just assume all people are evil and prepare for it. No joke.

 

[MasterBates]

Flag panel at Hook was asked about this. They did the standard response.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

 

[Gatordev]

Every situation is different. My point is that NJP won't automatically result in a PTS rejection. Depends on the individual's record, manning in their rate and other factors.

Brett

Agree. The particular instance I was speaking about wasn't just a repeat NJP incident, just a CO who went out on the line for a guy that was "done" but continued to toe the line, at least as far as the CO was concerned.

 

[phrogdriver]

Flag panel at Hook was asked about this. They did the standard response.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

Which was what, exactly?

 

[blackbart22]

My, my, how things change. Pulling into Cubi after a long haul on Yankee station, the CO went on TV to brief the troops on conduct ashore. He finished up by saying, " If don't want to get in trouble with me when you go ashore, do what sailors are supposed to do. Get drunk, get laid, and fight other sailors -- one at a time."

 

[insanebikerboy]

Really?

One of my guys had his second. AWF type (a rate in which we are very under-manned). Skipper practically begged to keep him. BUPERS is sending him home.

Have you seen different in recent days?

PTS is entire Navy manning numbers, not per squadron. So, while it may be hurting your squadron, it's reducing the numbers for that rate. If he's going home, shift his prd to eaos so you can get a replacement for him. That way you can show a need and get another AWF in place of the guy who is going home, instead of gapping the billet.

It sucks, I know, we are losing a shit-hot YN via PTS the same way but there's not much else we can do about it.

 

[jollygreen07]

PTS is entire Navy manning numbers, not per squadron. So, while it may be hurting your squadron, it's reducing the numbers for that rate. If he's going home, shift his prd to eaos so you can get a replacement for him. That way you can show a need and get another AWF in place of the guy who is going home, instead of gapping the billet.

It sucks, I know, we are losing a shit-hot YN via PTS the same way but there's not much else we can do about it.

It's not a PTS issue, though I just lost my LPO to PTS. Admin sep because of DUI. Looking back I guess I missed that part of the convo. Regardless it's a damned shame. Not so much the guys getting kicked out because of a DUI, but the guys who have a spotless discipliary record and didn't have enough EP evals. Even worse, it's a constant hit on the safety surveys. The sailors are worried about PTS, ERB, and God knows what else is going down in the coming years. I know the Navy needs to cut manning, but I want the guy rigging my flight controls worried about doing his job, not if he'll be able to pay the bills in six months. For those in the know: has there been any grumbling about cutting officer manning in ways other than reduced bonuses/early retirement?

 

[Gatordev]

It's not a PTS issue, though I just lost my LPO to PTS. Admin sep because of DUI. Looking back I guess I missed that part of the convo. Regardless it's a damned shame. Not so much the guys getting kicked out because of a DUI, but the guys who have a spotless discipliary record and didn't have enough EP evals. Even worse, it's a constant hit on the safety surveys. The sailors are worried about PTS, ERB, and God knows what else is going down in the coming years. I know the Navy needs to cut manning, but I want the guy rigging my flight controls worried about doing his job, not if he'll be able to pay the bills in six months. For those in the know: has there been any grumbling about cutting officer manning in ways other than reduced bonuses/early retirement?

Getting completely off topic here, but just to put a word out for you guys that are losing (GOOD) people. Tell them about the reserves. I know most REGNAV guys don't really know a thing about the Reserves, but tell your people that are being forced out to go to a Reserve recruiter. There's lots of hardware units (usually located where most regular units are located) that need qualified people and while there's not money for everyone all the time, if a guy is that good, usually a squadron can find money to bring them on active duty periodically throughout the year.

Now back to DUIs and the supposedly consequence-free world of civilian life.

 

[MasterBates]

Which was what, exactly?

"This is a different Navy, it's not really true we are zero tolerance, we've ALWAYS not allowed X..."

They dodged confronting Secretary Lehman head on. They tried to skirt it. IF there is an easy/simple answer, the flag panel will go straight up with you. On cultural stuff/dealing with SWO CNO, etc.. They go all politician on you.

 

[MasterBates]

For those in the know: has there been any grumbling about cutting officer manning in ways other than reduced bonuses/early retirement?

Year group shuffles, and reduced promotion opportunity leading to IRAD's for 2xFOS.

It's always happened, but now it's happening a lot more. When I 2XFOS'd I had everyone from the Commodore to other random LTs assuming I had done something "Bad" like leave a tour with a SP FITREP, DUI, "Bad Paper" like a Punitive Letter of Caution or some such shit.

We've lost 4 LTs just out of my wing this year to 2X FOS, that were not who you would traditionally expect to FOS.

 

[MasterBates]

And before some people roll in with the "Professionalism" train, the other 3 dudes had taken orders and received FITREPs that traditionally would have made LCDR no problem, although DH would be a luck/timing issue. (1 NFO to pilot, 2 airframe retreads, 1 PEP guy)

 

[scoolbubba]

Getting completely off topic here, but just to put a word out for you guys that are losing (GOOD) people. Tell them about the reserves. I know most REGNAV guys don't really know a thing about the Reserves, but tell your people that are being forced out to go to a Reserve recruiter. There's lots of hardware units (usually located where most regular units are located) that need qualified people and while there's not money for everyone all the time, if a guy is that good, usually a squadron can find money to bring them on active duty periodically throughout the year.

Now back to DUIs and the supposedly consequence-free world of civilian life.

We had an AWO2 who was about to be PTS'd out. He got scooped up by the reserve recruiter, picked up 1st, and got a part time job with a contracter that turned his PTS into a nice little raise. He looks way happier every time I see him.

 

[Gatordev]

Exactly. You can even apply for FTS from the Reserves, although our rates are full just like everyone else, so it's not a sure thing.