sTUPID qUESTIONS aBOUT ocs

[Gatordev]

First up, I wanted to say your initial advice was very good...be in better shape than just being able to pass a PRT. I apologize if it sounds like I'm trying to argue that point.

They can honestly pull you for safety or failure to perform any day they are PTing you and you’re not meeting the bar.

This is why I think it's an interesting discussion and I can thread split it, if needed. Someone has to define what "the bar" is. Not being able to keep pace when running is a good and easy example, but still, there is a bar defined like a 8 minute mile pace, for example. That's a graded event and not just "PT."

I was asking my earlier questions because it's extremely rare to be rolled from anything in the Navy for "failing" just "PT," with the exception of NSW or SPECOPs programs. One still has to meet a standard on graded physical items, but that's different than PT. I understand that students may be told differently, but at the end of the day, there are defined training objectives.

It would be interesting to know what the actual wickets are for OCS, not that I expect them to be public. I'd also love to go behind the scenes of SERE and see how those evolutions are graded. It certainly isn't by passing every evolution or I'd still be sitting in my cinder block cell.

 

[RhodesReese]

First up, I wanted to say your initial advice was very good...be in better shape than just being able to pass a PRT. I apologize if it sounds like I'm trying to argue that point.



This is why I think it's an interesting discussion and I can thread split it, if needed. Someone has to define what "the bar" is. Not being able to keep pace when running is a good and easy example, but still, there is a bar defined like a 8 minute mile pace, for example. That's a graded event and not just "PT."

I was asking my earlier questions because it's extremely rare to be rolled from anything in the Navy for "failing" just "PT," with the exception of NSW or SPECOPs programs. One still has to meet a standard on graded physical items, but that's different than PT. I understand that students may be told differently, but at the end of the day, there are defined training objectives.

It would be interesting to know what the actual wickets are for OCS, not that I expect them to be public. I'd also love to go behind the scenes of SERE and see how those evolutions are graded. It certainly isn't by passing every evolution or I'd still be sitting in my cinder block cell.

So as someone who was behind the scenes, and coordinated for the DIs and RDC, for all three major evolutions that first three weeks of OCS, I can say that it’s subjective to a degree. There are of course minimum standards during certain evolutions but if your showing sloppy form you can be pulled.

What is sloppy form? Well that’s the subjective part. Each person will have a slightly different idea of what incorrect form is. And hey try to be standard across the board but I’ve seen it time and time again. The Navy’s PT standards just aren’t the same as a Marines.

During RLP. You can recite the knowledge but if it’s not verbatim, while doing PT, and quick you can be get a knowledge hit. And multiple knowledge hits can rack up fast and you’ll drop below that min 80 score.

All the while you’re still being graded on form and performance. If your sand baging your PT so you have a little extra strength at the end. They can and will pull you. I’ve seen it. My hatch mate was pulled because he didn’t put out immediately.

This isn’t to scare anyone. I’ve seen people pass every evolution when I personally felt they shouldn’t. But i am saying this to reinforce that you need to put 110 percent effort in everything you do. And be in decent shape going into OCS. If not, you’ll get into decent shape while in holding company.

 

[miss1ng]

Someone has to define what "the bar" is. Not being able to keep pace when running is a good and easy example, but still, there is a bar defined like a 8 minute mile pace, for example. That's a graded event and not just "PT."

I brought this point up in our OCS debrief meeting and it got dismissed pretty quickly by the chiefs.

We saw a huge difference in intensity and expectations across classes during my time there which in turn also led to classes getting disrespected by other classes who thought they were "tougher" because they had harder leadership. People who would've easily passed in one class were rolling in other classes due to a lack of standardization across classes.

When I brought up the need to have standardized PT criteria, our chief said, "I'll tell you right now that's not going to happen - Every person [drill instructor, etc.] does things differently."

But that's the whole reason we have a Lead Drill Instructor who oversees the entire program - I always assumed he would've been the one to ensure some level of standardization, but I guess not.

 

[404 Error Not Found]

Nobody in our class rolled for training country familiarization and I didn't hear of anybody getting rolled for it in other classes either, but admittedly that is a small sample size, and things might have changed in the last year. We lost about 10% of our class at each of the other three evolutions (First Friday, Fast Cruise, and RLP). RLP was by far the hardest IMO, but you get a second chance if you fail so we lost the least amount of people there.

Unfortunately, a lot of the inspections at OCS are somewhat subjective and some inspectors are much harder graders than others. If I remember correctly though, the inspectors for RLP do need to call someone else into the room to observe and have them agree with their decision before they fail someone for failure to perform so there are some safeguards. Still, you can't get rid of all the subjectivity and some people do end up getting targeted by instructors who think they don't deserve to pass (which may or may not be warranted).

That being said, even if you fail an evolution and have to roll the graduation rate is still very high. As long as people stick with it and don't DOR they tend to get pushed through.

 

[Gatordev]

People who would've easily passed in one class were rolling in other classes due to a lack of standardization across classes.

Yup, the age old problem of instructing. Don't worry, the private sector can't manage to get that right either.

When I brought up the need to have standardized PT criteria, our chief said, "I'll tell you right now that's not going to happen - Every person [drill instructor, etc.] does things differently."

I "get it," but I also raise the BS flag. There are plenty of other high-risk, high output PT courses out there in the Navy that have managed to standardize PT criteria. The secret is accepting the fact that not every event is actually graded, but can still be informative to the instructors so they know who to keep a closer eye on.

Having run such a school house for a brief time, there was quite a bit of supervision over the instructors by myself or the SEL to make sure they were making attrition decisions at the right point in the training. At the end of the day, the fleet needs the product the school house is making, so the mission can't be total attrition.

Thanks for entertaining my questions, everyone.

 

[Djackson]

Fast cruise is just another high intensity session where the RDCs and DIs push people to their limits.

Training country fam is where they show you the campus and do PT along the way. You can role if you’re unable to keep up/do the PT for safety reasons.

They can honestly pull you for safety or failure to perform any day they are PTing you and you’re not meeting the bar.

Keep it up!

 

[JoeBob1788]

Yup, the age old problem of instructing. Don't worry, the private sector can't manage to get that right either.



I "get it," but I also raise the BS flag. There are plenty of other high-risk, high output PT courses out there in the Navy that have managed to standardize PT criteria. The secret is accepting the fact that not every event is actually graded, but can still be informative to the instructors so they know who to keep a closer eye on.

Having run such a school house for a brief time, there was quite a bit of supervision over the instructors by myself or the SEL to make sure they were making attrition decisions at the right point in the training. At the end of the day, the fleet needs the product the school house is making, so the mission can't be total attrition.

Thanks for entertaining my questions, everyone.

Having worked attrition programs, then being an observer for RLP, there is certainly an inevitable amount of subjectiveness. But an out of shape senior chief might judge improper PT a little differently than an iron gunny even with strict guidelines. Importantly for OCS, while my class had an overall roll-rate of 60% (which shocked me), people only attrited due to DOR and medical. The grad rate was insanely high, well into the 90s. So attrition is very very low and the product making it to the fleet is delayed by 3 weeks, nothing more.

The physical shape most people show up in just doesn’t cut it, so OCS becomes a 16 or 19 week program. Some of the physical transformations I saw were astounding. We had a guy roll in who had gone from 17 to 70 push-ups. No idea how he even got there with 17, but a roll or two later and he was stronger physically and mentally. Lots of softer guys lost 30 lbs.

I was blown away by how quickly and casually the rolls were handed out. But I couldn’t disagree with the decisions, and it was something the cadre were always trying to troubleshoot.

 

[einsteinboricua]

Question: for the IST, I saw the video on pushups. The sailor's feet aren't exactly close together and per the comments and the guidelines, it sounds like the only requirements for the feet are that your weight is supported on your toes and that your feet can't touch a wall. So can the feet be wider than your average pushup?

And also, when resting at the top (given that you can't rest on the ground), what happens if you slightly arch your back (pushing away with your palms, kinda like a downward dog position) to give your shoulders some quick rest time?

And can you shift the hands to work different muscles? Wide arms work chest; narrow arms are more arms.

I decided to time myself doing pushups and the most I could get was 28 before I gave out; granted, this is a different method that how we do it at CrossFit where you CAN rest on the ground or on your knees before busting out a few more.

 

[villo0692]

I don’t wanna start gossip her

Question: for the IST, I saw the video on pushups. The sailor's feet aren't exactly close together and per the comments and the guidelines, it sounds like the only requirements for the feet are that your weight is supported on your toes and that your feet can't touch a wall. So can the feet be wider than your average pushup?

And also, when resting at the top (given that you can't rest on the ground), what happens if you slightly arch your back (pushing away with your palms, kinda like a downward dog position) to give your shoulders some quick rest time?

And can you shift the hands to work different muscles? Wide arms work chest; narrow arms are more arms.

I decided to time myself doing pushups and the most I could get was 28 before I gave out; granted, this is a different method that how we do it at CrossFit where you CAN rest on the ground or on your knees before busting out a few more.

You cannot lift your hands off the ground once you start, meaning you cannot reposition your hands. You aren’t my supposed to arch your back, but ppl do it anyways, and that bad form might get you pulled from the IST, or any PRT for that matter. However they do get a bit more lenient in further PRTs. Just keep you f ing back straight

 

[BDavis11]

I don’t wanna start gossip her

You cannot lift your hands off the ground once you start, meaning you cannot reposition your hands. You aren’t my supposed to arch your back, but ppl do it anyways, and that bad form might get you pulled from the IST, or any PRT for that matter. However they do get a bit more lenient in further PRTs. Just keep you f ing back straight

Regular navy you can “slide” your hands so long as you don’t lift it

 

[villo0692]

Regular navy you can “slide” your hands so long as you don’t lift it

Give that a shot at OCS, tell us how it goes

 

[BDavis11]

Give that a shot at OCS, tell us how it goes

Lol I mean personally I don’t need to. I was just saying what they got to look forward to post ocs and the difference between ocs and making it to the fleet ??‍♂️

 

[Gatordev]

I was blown away by how quickly and casually the rolls were handed out. But I couldn’t disagree with the decisions, and it was something the cadre were always trying to troubleshoot.

You bring up a good point that a roll isn't attrition, which is a more nuanced distinction in the discussion that I was overlooking.

 

[RhodesReese]

 

[Whiskeyrice]

For those interested, make sure to not turn off service to your phone and to bring a charger as you'll have it for the first few days and may need it it for a specific brief. You won't get a NEX trip for the first 3 weeks so make sure you have all the toiletries, laundry detergent, chapstick, etc. That you may need for that time period. Your own pillow is advised too for a couple of reasons..