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The end of NATO?

SynixMan

SynixMan

Mobilizer Extraordinaire
pilot
Contributor
robav8r said:
I've been following Jeffrey Sachs for awhile now (currently reading one of his books). I may have posted this previously, but I have not read any probing analysis of how Ukraine has gotten squeezed by the NATO expansion to the east following the end of the Cold War. He makes some good points about how Russia views this expansion since 1994. I understand Putin's actions as a dictator and his aggressive action towards Ukraine, but does Jeffrey Sachs have any points worth discussion here? Please, no snarking, let's just discuss and educate.
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I reject the idea that the democratically elected governments and the peoples therein do not have agency to decide their own path. Membership in NATO is a backstop against exactly what we're seeing in Ukraine. These people have very real memories of what Russian oppression looks like. And we're seeing it again in Ukraine in places like Bucha. Russia is a bully. NATO isn't an aggressor, it's a defensive alliance. Name one country NATO has invaded. Alone these smaller nations can't stand up to the bully, neither in manpower or strategic nuclear weapons.

And now we're about to undo the last 80 years of relative peace and prosperity, where we dictated the world order and benefitted mightily from it, for the the dumbest of possible reasons. I said it before, but this idiocy of abandoning NATO will result in nuclear proliferation on a massive scale. It's the only proven deterrent now that America is abandoning the western world order.
 
robav8r

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
SynixMan said:
I reject the idea that the democratically elected governments and the peoples therein do not have agency to decide their own path. Membership in NATO is a backstop against exactly what we're seeing in Ukraine. These people have very real memories of what Russian oppression looks like. And we're seeing it again in Ukraine in places like Bucha. Russia is a bully. NATO isn't an aggressor, it's a defensive alliance. Name one country NATO has invaded. Alone these smaller nations can't stand up to the bully, neither in manpower or strategic nuclear weapons.

And now we're about to undo the last 80 years of relative peace and prosperity, where we dictated the world order and benefitted mightily from it, for the the dumbest of possible reasons. I said it before, but this idiocy of abandoning NATO will result in nuclear proliferation on a massive scale. It's the only proven deterrent now that America is abandoning the western world order.
Click to expand...
Abandoning NATO is a horrifically bad idea.
 
JTS11

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
robav8r said:
I've been following Jeffrey Sachs for awhile now (currently reading one of his books). I may have posted this previously, but I have not read any probing analysis of how Ukraine has gotten squeezed by the NATO expansion to the east following the end of the Cold War. He makes some good points about how Russia views this expansion since 1994. I understand Putin's actions as a dictator and his aggressive action towards Ukraine, but does Jeffrey Sachs have any points worth discussion here? Please, no snarking, let's just discuss and educate.
Click to expand...
Interesting article on Sachs from a Murdoch-owned British media outlet. I don't know that much about him, but this article gives some background.

www.thetimes.com

The Pope whisperer who hates the West

Jeffrey Sachs, who addressed the European parliament last week, is a pernicious influence in the Vatican and beyond
www.thetimes.com www.thetimes.com
 
Griz882

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
BigRed389 said:
What’s funny is that before, this would have all fallen under the “no one of importance” exemption😂
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Still does! Even Musk and X can’t elevate a congressman to any level of importance outside his district.
 
JTS11

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Griz882 said:
Still does! Even Musk and X can’t elevate a congressman to any level of importance outside his district.
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The dude is currently running roughshod through the federal government right now, so I'd disagree with that statement. Haven't seen too many legislative leaders defy him yet, but I could be wrong.
 
sevenhelmet

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
Griz882 said:
Still does! Even Musk and X can’t elevate a congressman to any level of importance outside his district.
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Particularly when Congress is asleep at the wheel.

No, the bigger concern is that Elon is in such an influential position with POTUS, who has said similar things about NATO for years.

Are they proposing any new international alliances with our European allies? Any updates to existing international agreements? Or is it just old-school isolationism under the guise of “fiscal responsibility”?
 
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