The end of NATO?

[Griz882]

Afghanistan defeated Russia. Bled them out.

Ukraine just has to not lose.

This isn’t accurate history. The Soviets had fewer than 10,000 KIA in combat. Most of their issues were soldiers hospitalized due to sickness and disease coming from poor hygiene and even worse training. The war ended because Gorbachev was attempting to remove the Soviet Union from the economic stagnation that had set in under the leadership of Brezhnev, and to reform the Soviet Union's economy and image. Two treaties the Soviets wanted, the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty and Beijing’s stipulation that a normalization of relations would not happen until Moscow withdrew its forces from Afghanistan.

EDIT. I mistyped the number last night…it is fewer than 15,000 KIA, not 10,000

 

[Fallonflyr]

As a person who went into the military when Reagan was POTUS, our objective was to put MiGs into the ground and tank turrets into the air…we won that Cold War only to see the bone spur draft dodger roll belly up years later. Sickening.

 

[JTS11]

As a person who went into the military when Reagan was POTUS, our objective was to put MiGs into the ground and tank turrets into the air…we won that Cold War only to see the bone spur draft dodger roll belly up years later. Sickening.

Even though it was not unexpected, I was nauseous watching what happened today.

 

[JTS11]

It's apparent that quite a few of the participants in this thread either dont have access, or dont have a desire to read how things are really going on the battle field. Yes, it would be costly for UKR to keep up the fight. And yes, Russia is also a shit show that is vulnerable to prolonged loss of kit and personnel, especially if you pair that with a sanction laden economy. The longer the Russians fight, the stupider they look, and the less their neighbors are intimidated with anything short of nuclear weapons.

It's like watching Red Dawn, and rooting for the Soviets and Cubans. Bizaare stuff.

I guess the Russians are now the protectors of traditional Evangelical moral values...or some shit.

 

[BigRed389]

Steel production?

Artillery production?

Shipbuilding?

Yup. They haven’t caught us qualitatively in a clean sweep across the board.
But they’ve caught up to “close enough” in a lot of areas, especially ones that matter, and then quantity really does have a quality of its own.

Especially if it’s a scenario where we have to fight an away game, in their backyard, and are doing it mostly from the sea or expeditionary bases, while they are fighting from well built up and defended areas.

 

[DanMa1156]

Guess we should throw out the Constitution while we're at it, huh?

Are you a bot? Where in the Constitution is Washington's farewell speech?

 

[Brett327]

Guess we should throw out the Constitution while we're at it, huh?

Hey New Guy and "Commercial HVAC Engineer." Welcome to the site. As an Air Warriors best practice... Recommend that you STFU for your first three months here. Lurk, learn, and ask smart questions.

 

[Hotdogs]

Steel production?

Artillery production?

Shipbuilding?

Would you pull the lanyard behind a Chinese tube? Low quality steel, poor manufacturing tolerances, and immature supply system. Yeah, no thanks.

I know this “everything is made in China” trope is everywhere, but China is just a giant assembly shop that imports tons of raw material and produces cheap value added goods that it sells to the rest of the world. It’s not like the rest of the world is scrambling to buy Chinese ships and artillery, and it’s for a reason. Not saying we shouldn’t be concerned or that they haven’t advanced, but needs better context.

 

[JTS11]

Would you pull the lanyard behind a Chinese tube? Low quality steel, poor manufacturing tolerances, and immature supply system. Yeah, no thanks.

I know this “everything is made in China” trope is everywhere, but China is just a giant assembly shop that imports tons of raw material and produces cheap value added goods that it sells to the rest of the world. It’s not like the rest of the world is scrambling to buy Chinese ships and artillery, and it’s for a reason. Not saying we shouldn’t be concerned or that they haven’t advanced, but needs better context.

Are you saying I shouldn't buy shit from Temu? kidding...I can't escape ads from these fucks.

 

[taxi1]

Again, how are they going to reclaim territory?

Again, they don’t have to reclaim territory. They just need to bleed out the Russians. Send their economy into the tank. Eventually start killing Muscovites, who have mostly avoided the war and let the undesirables die for them. Putin will fall if he doesn’t win.

It looks like what is going to happen is we are going to give Ukraine to Putin. Trump is going to give Putin exactly what he wants and needs.

It is grotesque and sickening to watch.

 

[Yardstick]

Hey, I was reliably told by president obama that viewing Russia as a geopolitical threat was Cold War thinking. Was I lied to? If that’s the case, shouldn’t we be trying to collaborate with them? Also it’s strange that Trump is such a Russian puppet that Russia launched invasions during the Obama and Biden administration but Trump is supposed to clean up the mess? Weird

 

[taxi1]

shouldn’t we be trying to collaborate with them?

Do you support our ongoing pivot from an alliance with NATO and Ukraine to an alliance with Putin and Russia?

 

[MaxGar]

Also it’s strange that Trump is such a Russian puppet that Russia launched invasions during the Obama and Biden administration but Trump is supposed to clean up the mess? Weird

I’m pretty sure during that time Agent Pee-Pee tapes was telling the world BarryO was born in Kenya.
Trump stole won the election so he wears the NATO crown. Yes he is supposed to clean up the mess

 

[Griz882]

Again, they don’t have to reclaim territory. They just need to bleed out the Russians. Send their economy into the tank. Eventually start killing Muscovites, who have mostly avoided the war and let the undesirables die for them. Putin will fall if he doesn’t win.

It looks like what is going to happen is we are going to give Ukraine to Putin. Trump is going to give Putin exactly what he wants and needs.

It is grotesque and sickening to watch.

Normally, yes…but it isn’t working that way. Europe is buying Russian gas as fast as it can be pumped down the line.

EU devours Russian gas at record speed despite cutoff

Pressure to impose sanctions, a raging war and a looming Trump presidency still have not quenched the bloc’s thirst for Russian gas.

www.politico.eu

Unless the Ukrainians can find a way kill Russians at a ratio of 40 to 1 they simply cannot “bleed out” the Russians - that is a mathematical fact. Equally, Ukraine was dragged into this war leaving them on their back foot since the start. They have the machines and munitions to fight, but they don’t have the organization. Because Russia keeps wasting soldiers for meters of land the Ukrainians can’t create effective, trained, and capable military formations above battalion levels. They need a ceasefire so they can catch their breath.

If you are looking for a victory it is already there. U.S. and NATO equipment, systems, and munitions have hollowed out the Russian army. There are NO menacing armored divisions facing the west. Russia’s Guards Armies are paper organizations only. With the exception of their nuclear forces, Russia is nearly defenseless against a real enemy. A consolidated Europe could, in fact, beat Russia in a conventional war without U.S. help, but (even well-supplied Ukraine) can not defeat Russia because demographics matter.

 

[Yardstick]

Do you support our ongoing pivot from an alliance with NATO and Ukraine to an alliance with Putin and Russia?

America shouldn’t have permanent Allies that bleed them dry and take advantage of our standing in the world. America only needs to have interests; we should continually reevaluate what works best and not get tied down by freeloading “allies”