This morning's A-pool idiocy...PT Policy and O vs PO open debate

[squorch2]

but to snap off on some PO2 like an arrogant prick, not letting him finish his sentences

You don't wait to stop insubordination.

 

[phrogdriver]

I just don't get it. Yes, I realize that not every ensign in A-Pool is a bag of ass, but there are certainly way more than there should be. Who do these kids think they are? They're commissioned officers and they're acting like some asshole high school jock who thinks his/her shit doesn't stink. Yes, maybe there are some gripes about A-Pool, but to snap off on some PO2 like an arrogant prick, not letting him finish his sentences? Was the kid trying to "look cool" in front of everyone? It's the other ensigns who need to shut that ass clown and others like him down, not some LT from STUCON who's probably just biding their time waiting to get out. We're going to be stuck with those idiots, not them, so it should be our problem to deal with. Anyway, the real problem, like I said before, is the comm sources. Yes, people will bitch about this, but they're producing crappy officers. Too many are getting by, thanks to the soft standards most academies and ROTC units hold, and yes, I hold my own school accountable too. I'm not saying we need to get back to the old school skull cracking days of years past, but something on that base level needs to change. I think they should pull out these disrespectful, un-officerlike, D-bags, find out who produced them, then make a call to their school to let them know, hey, you suck, fix your program. My .02, I'll get off my high horse now.

Samuel Nicholas was recruiting the very first Marine in Tun Tavern. He stood up and said "I'll buy a free pint for the first man to sign up for the Continental Marines!"

Sure enough, a patron signed a contract, got his pint, and became the very first Marine recruit.

Captain Nicholas then said,"I'll buy TWO pints for the next man to sign up!"

Another patron signed up, got his tow pints and sat next to the other new recruit, who told him,"In the OLD Corps we only got one pint!"

Everyone always thinks things are getting worse. The level of suck has remained remarkably constant over time.

 

[ImfromJersey]

yes, obviously, but there are other ways of going about it.

 

[Sky-Pig]

I just don't get it. Yes, I realize that not every ensign in A-Pool is a bag of ass, but there are certainly way more than there should be. Who do these kids think they are? They're commissioned officers and they're acting like some asshole high school jock who thinks his/her shit doesn't stink. Yes, maybe there are some gripes about A-Pool, but to snap off on some PO2 like an arrogant prick, not letting him finish his sentences? Was the kid trying to "look cool" in front of everyone? It's the other ensigns who need to shut that ass clown and others like him down, not some LT from STUCON who's probably just biding their time waiting to get out. We're going to be stuck with those idiots, not them, so it should be our problem to deal with. Anyway, the real problem, like I said before, is the comm sources. Yes, people will bitch about this, but they're producing crappy officers. Too many are getting by, thanks to the soft standards most academies and ROTC units hold, and yes, I hold my own school accountable too. I'm not saying we need to get back to the old school skull cracking days of years past, but something on that base level needs to change. I think they should pull out these disrespectful, un-officerlike, D-bags, find out who produced them, then make a call to their school to let them know, hey, you suck, fix your program. My .02, I'll get off my high horse now.

Hmmm...if you're going to go off on a rant like this, I'd say you better lay out your qualifications to make such judgements.

Seeing the words "old school" used injudiciously tends to fire me up...exactly what is your experience with the "old school"?

Is it the old school of A4s generation...my version of old school (USNA circa 89-93)...last week (?)...to when are you referring?

From your use of the words "kids" to describe your fellow officers...are you prior enlisted? Or did you take a leisurely route through college?

It's hard to judge tone via a typed message...so to be clear I'm not upset or trying to flame you...but, honestly, what qualifies you to pass this judgement?

It's the exact question and concern I would have if you were a JO standing in front of me with a complaint about how things have changed since the extreme awesomeness of "back in the day".

 

[BarrettRC8]

Samuel Nicholas was recruiting the very first Marine in Tun Tavern. He stood up and said "I'll buy a free pint for the first man to sign up for the Continental Marines!"

Sure enough, a patron signed a contract, got his pint, and became the very first Marine recruit.

Captain Nicholas then said,"I'll buy TWO pints for the next man to sign up!"

Another patron signed up, got his tow pints and sat next to the other new recruit, who told him,"In the OLD Corps we only got one pint!"

I've not heard that before; I enjoyed it. I'm going to make it a point to remember that.

 

[Bevo16]

yes, obviously, but there are other ways of going about it.

And bitching about it on the internet is your way. Good job.

I don't think that you really want to go back to "old school skull-cracking" ways. Your opinions don't seem to be that popular.

Good luck.

 

[ImfromJersey]

believe me, I'm not trying to enrage anyone by my opinions, nor am I trying to sounds like a pompous asshole either. but truly, do you need any "qualifications" to pass judgement on your peers? it's simply policing your own. if I was commenting on commanding officers, or even LT's, yes, I could and would expect outrage. but I guess it's more personal frustration than anything, and that's why I initially asked if this growing trend of disrespect/entitlement (not among everyone) was unique to this generation or if it was evident in years past as well. Yes, I realize all you winged guys are looking down at me like I'm some knowitall arrogant schmuck who has no experience to be making my claims, but in reality, it's you all who lack the experience to be commenting on the current state of the JO's. hear me out before you rip me a new asshole, and hopefully this will somewhat clarify my underlying point. even if you were commissioned 5 years ago, things have changed dramatically. Even from when I was a plebe to my 1st class year, the quality of midshipmen, across the board has declined. IT, PT, disciplining, traditions, respect, everything has been curtailed because of all sorts of political pullings. I'm not saying that this affects everyone, but it allows tons of people to slip through the cracks that normally would have been washed out or rolled for one reason or another. The academies mainly, are so focused on not attriting people that they end up keeping people who have no business being officers. Yes, I realize that that's the minority and most people commissioned are great upstanding people who are great officers, but it only takes one asshole to make the whole crowd look shitty, hence the situation in A-Pool today. it's frustrating being held in the same respect as the loud mouthed assclowns who shouldn't be in the shoes they're standing in. that's why I brought up the idea of looking at the comm sources and putting ownership on them. the problem needs to be fixed at the source

 

[desertoasis]

...Too many are getting by, thanks to the soft standards most academies and ROTC units hold...

Is this from your many hours of experience on scholarship selection boards? Do you KNOW how many people get turned away from scholarships? I find two problems with your argument:

Standards are set nationally, not by individual school, with the exception of the academies and senior militaries (VMI, Texas A&M etc.). The only reason they have higher standards is because they are required to by federal law. (See 10 USC, Ch. 103 if you wanna read em). ROTC schools can have requirements above the minimum, and most do, but the minimums are uniform for everyone.

Just like college scholarships, not everyone that applies for a scholarship gets one. So instead of complaining about the softening standards, try holding yourself to a higher one, and maybe all of us 'soft' ensigns who apparently don't know any better might just follow suit.

Lead by example. Its what all this business comes back to...the PTing, addressing superiors (and those under us), so-called commissioning standards...it ALL comes back to leading by example.

*steps off soapbox*

 

[desertoasis]

And PS a good start for you would be to check your language. Reinforcing your point is more effective if you do so through informed, intelligent words and not through swearing.

 

[Sky-Pig]

believe me, I'm not trying to enrage anyone by my opinions, nor am I trying to sounds like a pompous asshole either. but truly, do you need any "qualifications" to pass judgement on your peers? it's simply policing your own. if I was commenting on commanding officers, or even LT's, yes, I could and would expect outrage. but I guess it's more personal frustration than anything, and that's why I initially asked if this growing trend of disrespect/entitlement (not among everyone) was unique to this generation or if it was evident in years past as well. Yes, I realize all you winged guys are looking down at me like I'm some knowitall arrogant schmuck who has no experience to be making my claims, but in reality, it's you all who lack the experience to be commenting on the current state of the JO's. hear me out before you rip me a new asshole, and hopefully this will somewhat clarify my underlying point. even if you were commissioned 5 years ago, things have changed dramatically. Even from when I was a plebe to my 1st class year, the quality of midshipmen, across the board has declined. IT, PT, disciplining, traditions, respect, everything has been curtailed because of all sorts of political pullings. I'm not saying that this affects everyone, but it allows tons of people to slip through the cracks that normally would have been washed out or rolled for one reason or another. The academies mainly, are so focused on not attriting people that they end up keeping people who have no business being officers. Yes, I realize that that's the minority and most people commissioned are great upstanding people who are great officers, but it only takes one asshole to make the whole crowd look shitty, hence the situation in A-Pool today. it's frustrating being held in the same respect as the loud mouthed assclowns who shouldn't be in the shoes they're standing in. that's why I brought up the idea of looking at the comm sources and putting ownership on them. the problem needs to be fixed at the source

Never mind....this is not worth my time. I'm now too busy worrying about my lack of experience evaluating JOs.

 

[ImfromJersey]

I think you're mis-interpreting my point. It's not the standards of getting in I'm referring to. It's the standards midshipmen are being held accountable to while in school. If a mid were to talk back, question, insult, or basically be disrespectful to a superior, be it an ENS or an ADM, what would have happened. That's what I'm referring to. In today's age, what used to be a swift beatdown has turned into a slap on the wrist, and this is in comparrison to no more than 6 years ago. Respect namely has dropped, mainly because enforcing it is virtually no longer possible. How do you punish insubordination or disrespect now at a school? If you yell at someone, they complain you're harassing them. If you PT or IT someone, they claim you're hurting them. If you try to boot them or roll them, they challenge it, throw a fit, call their congressman, and end up making so much of a legal stink that no one wants to deal with it and they push it under the rug. Academies and ROTC units have been consistently lowering standards and the quality of some officers being produced has dropped. Honestly, question to you Desert, do you think this has become the case, or do you think your comm source has maintained pretty much throughout?

 

[red_ryder]

Well, A-pool has a lot of fresh Ensigns in it, and a lot of them are bound to be brats. I remember it. From what it sounds like though, the PO2 was out of line by trying to call them out. That should have been someone senior, like A-pool leader or better yet, the Ensigns in charge.

Or better yet, the Ensign sitting next to them.

As for PT with aircrew...ridiculous. PT is getting more and more ridiculous. We're supposed to be learning how to take responsibility and do it ourselves, not go back to OCS or the Academy and have someone make us do it. They should set up times for group free-PT and encourage mutual support. What about periodic PT tests, what happened to those? And if we fail them too much? Slap on the wrist? No, we have too many flight studs as it is.

Professionalism, people. It's not just a good idea; it's our job.

 

[desertoasis]

Honestly, question to you Desert, do you think this has become the case, or do you think your comm source has maintained pretty much throughout?

I can honestly say that the quality of officers to come out of Texas A&M has increased since I started there back in 04. The program, which was wallowing in a post-lawsuit pit following Bonfire collapsing and the FDT and PMC lawsuits. Basically, a bunch of hazing, PM for more details if you really want em. The Commandant who arrived in 03 in the footsteps of MGen Hopgood turned the program around and shifted the focus to academics, which I think needed to happen long before 2003. Like all major turnarounds, there have been setbacks, and there was an academic slump when I was a jr and sr, but overall, the quality of all three ROTC programs at A&M has increased substantially.

The NROTC program in particular has benefitted. Most of the staff that comes to A&M either went there for undergrad or went to the academy, so the knowledge and experience base is constant and relevant to the uniqueness of A&M's program. The current CO's project is to create a more effective academic program, started by the previous CO, that does not limit the training environment that the Corps of Cadets offers while still keeping grades up. It will weed out those who can't hack it but build those up who show promise. It's a hard balance to strike, but it doesn't indicate a lowering of quality if the program is changing. It just means that the methods by which Mids are being trained needs to be adapted to the new generation of students.

Personally, I don't consider myself or my peers to be of any lower quality than those who were commissioning when I arrived, nor do I consider those who are getting ready to commission to be of lower quality. I doubt anyone coming out of A&M would say it's getting soft in any way more than in jest. Sure, we'll say how much harder the Corps was over a few beers, but the rudiments and the vision are the same as they were 50 years ago. Maybe it's different outside the senior militaries, but that's just my viewpoint. And to be honest, I consider the current junior class at A&M (class of 2010) to be the best class to come out of there in a while, including my own class.

To be honest.

 

[Godspeed]

Yes, I realize all you winged guys are looking down at me like I'm some knowitall arrogant schmuck who has no experience to be making my claims, but in reality, it's you all who lack the experience to be commenting on the current state of the JO's.

Are you kidding me? I don't care how right you think you are, or how wrong you think your superior 'winged' officers are, talking like this will get you stomped in flight school (I promise). Tact my friend, one of the leadership traits of a good officer.

With that being said, I do agree with you to a point regarding the current 'state' of officers in API. I couldn't believe how many wrinkled pairs of khakis, improperly worn collar devices (or the wrong collar devices all together, or none at all), out of reg haircuts (and facial hair), or straight up fat bodies were lumming around.

It might be the overall image of API that is part of the problem. More specifically, I think that overall, Ensigns are expecting a paid vacation when they show up (I know this is how it was when I went through).

It's too bad that there are so many bodies (too many to keep track of). If the numbers weren't so high, I think that maybe having an observed fitrep (not even sure if that is possible or not) could help motivate the lazy. It's just an unfortunate situation; you have some real go getters, volunteering all over the place, PTing, keeping their uniforms in good order and presenting themselves professionally, and then you have the ones at the bottom; quibbling over the 2 hour a day stash job they were just assigned and looking like a bag of dirty a$$holes.

I think these things will sort themselves out throughout flight school. 'karma' I suppose.

 

[Bevo16]

believe me, I'm not trying to enrage anyone by my opinions, nor am I trying to sounds like a pompous asshole either.

You are failing.

hear me out before you rip me a new asshole, and hopefully this will somewhat clarify my underlying point. even if you were commissioned 5 years ago, things have changed dramatically.

How the fuck would you know what the guys in flight school were like when you were a senior in hich school? Were you hanging around A-Pool when you should have been learning that a capital letter is used to start a sentence.

Here is some help for you:

http://www.grammar-monster.com/lessons/capital_letters_start_sentences.htm

Even from when I was a plebe to my 1st class year, the quality of midshipmen, across the board has declined. IT, PT, disciplining, traditions, respect, everything has been curtailed because of all sorts of political pullings...blah..blah..blah.

I remember back when I was in grade school, all of the football players in High School were HUGE!! By the time I was in Jr. High, they were not that big anymore. Funny how that worked.

the problem needs to be fixed at the source

Because it would be to much trouble for you to address the problem when you see it. Way to lead.