What happens if you don't pass flight school?

[zippy]

Good God. I'm assuming this must have been an officership/non-flying issue, yes? Not to ask for specifics if such a thing would put someone under a bus or anything, but wow. Or is that a phantom product of overactive Cat I imaginations, like so many good student aircrew rumors are?

Word from the 122 IP crowd was that a certain TRAWING had squadrons elect to waive optional syllabus flights to decrease time to train, which lead to a product that wasn't upto standards for flying formation safely when they showed up at 122. They got a long green table to send a message to CNATRA that the fleet wasn't willing to accept a reduced quality of product (through no fault of the studs) in order to meet the CNATRA "at the right cost" mandate.

 

[gp360]

If any of you have questions or concerns relating to attrition throughout the program, feel free to ask or PM me. I attrited around this time last year and decided to visit the forum today for some reason...I feel like I could be of use to any guys or gals going through a tough time. Like some of the previous posters I also felt as if I let my country down, but fortunately have found a similar way to serve.

 

[sharkbait1]

If any of you have questions or concerns relating to attrition throughout the program, feel free to ask or PM me. I attrited around this time last year and decided to visit the forum today for some reason...I feel like I could be of use to any guys or gals going through a tough time. Like some of the previous posters I also felt as if I let my country down, but fortunately have found a similar way to serve.

Hi gp, I tried to send you a PM but it says I'm not allowed to. Could you please try starting a PM with me? I'd really appreciate it! Thanks!

 

[NRDPortlandOR]

Like a few others in this thread, I too am a flight school attrite.

For most of my life I've wanted to be a pilot and nothing more. I worked really hard in high school and was awarded an NROTC scholarship. I excelled in ROTC and graduated in 2010 with a pilot slot. I showed up to flight school extremely happy and excited to start my journey.

During the flying portion of IFS, I began to feel some weird side effects. I told my instructor, who then told the command. Next thing I knew I was out of class and talking to a flight doc. A few weeks later I was out of the program altogether. Obviously, I was shot. I cried in my car for probably 30 minutes after I got the news. My dream job was gone.

I went into the redes pool, where I attempted to switch to Intel. Unfortunately, being the end of the fiscal year, there was only one Intel slot for about 50 Officers. I was involuntarily separated and sent home.

For a year I worked with my local OR to get back in somehow. Eventually, he gave up and stopped returning my calls. Then one day out of the blue, he calls me to say that the Navy is bringing 1305's into the SELRES. I jumped at the opportunity and was selected. I drilled for about 2 months then put my application in for a CANREC spot at my local NRD. A few months later I was hired as an Officer Recruiter. I've been here for two years and am excited to see what will happen next in my unorthodox career.

Obviously, I will always have a soft spot for flight school attrites, so if anybody ever has a question, please feel free to PM me.

 

[Mr Spenz]

Other communities do factor flight and nuke attrites into their accession numbers, so they'll expect to absorb a certain number per FY; usually not any more than that.

The Navy's loathe to separate USNA and ROTC ensigns rather than redes, because the goal is to recoup the money spent on them. During my tenure as an instructor, it was very rare attrites from those sources to be sent home, short of aggravating circumstances (arrested for poaching, for example). There were a couple of brief windows where even USNA kids who DOR'ed were being separated, but it was a rare occurrence.

Through my flight school experience I actually only saw USNA and ROTC people attrite. A few OCS people would get a IPC or FPC but pass and be placed back into the syllabus.

 

[CommodoreMid]

Considering the majority of new SNA/SNFO ENS types are going to be ROTC/USNA types there are, by default, going to be more of those guys who fail out of flight school.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Considering the majority of new SNA/SNFO ENS types are going to be ROTC/USNA types there are, by default, going to be more of those guys who fail out of flight school.

all things being equal it should be about 2 ROTC/USNA fails for every 1 OCS fail as it is about 1/3 ROTC 1/3 USNA and 1/3 OCS

however almost all of the guys that were being sep'd due to flight school fail that spent time at my NRD were USNA and NROTC

 

[zippy]

Through my flight school experience I actually only saw USNA and ROTC people attrite. A few OCS people would get a IPC or FPC but pass and be placed back into the syllabus.

I've seen a few OCS guys attrites at various phases, but not many.

Many of the OCS guys were prior flight time, or had already spent a bit of times in the real world as an adult. Combine those attributes with the fact they are a smaller number of selectees and they're attrition levels may appear to be lower, even if they're relatively in line with the other groups % wise.

 

[Uncle Fester]

We looked at backgrounds vs performance pretty closely when I was at Schools Command. There really was no statistically significant correlation between commissioning source and odds of success or failure. OCS kids washed out about as often as Academy and ROTC kids.

The only real determinant we could see was that priors (and others who'd been out of formal classroom schooling a long time) had a much high chance of attrition than recent graduates. Also people with families (unavoidable distractions). So the salty O-1E with a couple of kids and a degree-mill BA was the 'perfect storm' student.

 

[Flash]

We looked at backgrounds vs performance pretty closely when I was at Schools Command. There really was no statistically significant correlation between commissioning source and odds of success or failure. OCS kids washed out about as often as Academy and ROTC kids.

What about Riddle kids?

I remember you mentioning a few times that some of them were 'special' cases that appeared before boards at a higher rate than others, or did it just seem that way?

 

[sevenhelmet]

What about Riddle kids?

I remember you mentioning a few times that some of them were 'special' cases that appeared before boards at a higher rate than others, or did it just seem that way?

I knew 2 Riddlers during flight school. One was a standup guy, you'd never guess he went to school there, and ended up (I believe) flying Hornets. The other one just knew it all based on his prior flight time, and couldn't wait to tell you about it. You can guess what happened there.

 

[CommodoreMid]

We looked at backgrounds vs performance pretty closely when I was at Schools Command. There really was no statistically significant correlation between commissioning source and odds of success or failure. OCS kids washed out about as often as Academy and ROTC kids.

The only real determinant we could see was that priors (and others who'd been out of formal classroom schooling a long time) had a much high chance of attrition than recent graduates. Also people with families (unavoidable distractions). So the salty O-1E with a couple of kids and a degree-mill BA was the 'perfect storm' student.

I remember you saying something to this effect during FR&R back in 2009.

 

[Uncle Fester]

What about Riddle kids?

I remember you mentioning a few times that some of them were 'special' cases that appeared before boards at a higher rate than others, or did it just seem that way?

I knew 2 Riddlers during flight school. One was a standup guy, you'd never guess he went to school there, and ended up (I believe) flying Hornets. The other one just knew it all based on his prior flight time, and couldn't wait to tell you about it. You can guess what happened there.

We didn't break out performance by school, just commissioning source, and the ERAU kids were in with the ROTC and some OCS. But schools were noted on the student data cards, and we saw those during PRBs and other remediation. The Riddle kids (and Academy bros) tended to stand out for their attitudes. Unearned saltiness, as sevenhelmet alluded to. Already knew it all and didn't see the need to go back to the books with all their vast aviation knowledge.

In fairness, plenty of Riddle Kids kept their heads down, ears open, mouths shut, colored inside the lines, and did just fine.

 

[Randy Daytona]

A few observations from a decade and a half in the training command:

1) If you are having problems, ask to be scheduled with a reservist. Absolutely no offense to the active duty, but there is a substantial experience difference between a very busy active duty IP who has 400 hours in model and a reservist happy to be there with 4,000 hours. Generally we can pick up trends very quickly.

2) The IP's will bend over backwards to get a motivated, hustling SNA through a sticking point. However, if someone doesn't aeronautically adapt, we will work hard to make sure you get a new designator. Don't feel like you let anyone down - you volunteered and gave it your best shot, it is what it is, and there are plenty of other jobs that are just as important - intel, FAO, cyber, logistics, etc.

3) If you are winging the month you medical is due, under no circumstances get your medical first. GET YOUR WINGS. After that, then go to medical. (not sure if there is a grace period or not).

4) Prior flight time is valuable - even if nothing more than an exposure to course rules and radio communications. I am not sure if SNA's are still stashed at squadrons waiting to go to flight school, but if so, it is a great way to get some free flight time.

5) If you are having problems flying, absolutely crush your brief - that will demonstrate your motivation and determination - and will in turn motivate the IP's to work even harder.

 

[AllYourBass]

A few observations from a decade and a half in the training command:

1) If you are having problems, ask to be scheduled with a reservist. Absolutely no offense to the active duty, but there is a substantial experience difference between a very busy active duty IP who has 400 hours in model and a reservist happy to be there with 4,000 hours. Generally we can pick up trends very quickly.

Did anyone know Commander Q? He retired early this year from the HTs. That man's logbook should be preserved in a museum. He was one of the coolest, craziest pilots I've had the chance to fly with yet, and he'd just bend over backward to help students in any way he possibly could. You could call him with aerodynamics questions or even just to catch the local 5K. And he flew some painfully uncomfortable rotor arc distances during formations hops.

Most reservists I've flown with throughout flight school have been pretty awesome.