What happens if you don't pass flight school?

[zippy]

A few observations from a decade and a half in the training command:

1) If you are having problems, ask to be scheduled with a reservist. Absolutely no offense to the active duty, but there is a substantial experience difference between a very busy active duty IP who has 400 hours in model and a reservist happy to be there with 4,000 hours. Generally we can pick up trends very quickly.

2) The IP's will bend over backwards to get a motivated, hustling SNA through a sticking point. However, if someone doesn't aeronautically adapt, we will work hard to make sure you get a new designator. Don't feel like you let anyone down - you volunteered and gave it your best shot, it is what it is, and there are plenty of other jobs that are just as important - intel, FAO, cyber, logistics, etc.

3) If you are winging the month you medical is due, under no circumstances get your medical first. GET YOUR WINGS. After that, then go to medical. (not sure if there is a grace period or not).

4) Prior flight time is valuable - even if nothing more than an exposure to course rules and radio communications. I am not sure if SNA's are still stashed at squadrons waiting to go to flight school, but if so, it is a great way to get some free flight time.

5) If you are having problems flying, absolutely crush your brief - that will demonstrate your motivation and determination - and will in turn motivate the IP's to work even harder.

THIS, if you guys pay attention to anything, pay attention to this, particularly #5.

I once inherited an owning who had problems making things click flying, but he was the absolute best briefer i ever encountered. I worked the hardest I ever did as an instructor with him because he went above and beyond the expectation for him showing up prepared, and it we promised students that if they showed up prepared we'd be able to teach them how to fly... in due time he went from me questioning if he'd pass his initial solo to flying hornets now.

I learned to nitpick details of VT flights from the reservists i flew with in the T-34s because they had thousands of hours in it instructing. When it came to the T-6B, there was a little bit of a role reversal when it came to aircraft specific stuff, but after several hundred hours, you're able to predict where students make mistakes (in fact you can brief it to them in the brief).

Depending on flight schedules, reservist may not be sitting around available when you need them (kinda like your local PD), but you'll know who the AD IPs are who put in extra time to help students and those who you need to steer clear off. Theres absolutely no shame in approaching an IP and asking them how to do X, Y or Z and asking when they'll be available to teach it to you (pro-tip: don't wait until the last minute).

 

[MIDNJAC]

I'm pretty sure that studying my face off throughout my career, and giving/receiving a good brief is the reason I have gotten this far. I wish I could cite natural talent, but that is not the case for me.

 

[SoopurHero816]

I've seen a few OCS guys attrites at various phases, but not many.

Many of the OCS guys were prior flight time, or had already spent a bit of times in the real world as an adult. Combine those attributes with the fact they are a smaller number of selectees and they're attrition levels may appear to be lower, even if they're relatively in line with the other groups % wise.

THIS, if you guys pay attention to anything, pay attention to this, particularly #5.

I once inherited an owning who had problems making things click flying, but he was the absolute best briefer i ever encountered. I worked the hardest I ever did as an instructor with him because he went above and beyond the expectation for him showing up prepared, and it we promised students that if they showed up prepared we'd be able to teach them how to fly... in due time he went from me questioning if he'd pass his initial solo to flying hornets now.

I learned to nitpick details of VT flights from the reservists i flew with in the T-34s because they had thousands of hours in it instructing. When it came to the T-6B, there was a little bit of a role reversal when it came to aircraft specific stuff, but after several hundred hours, you're able to predict where students make mistakes (in fact you can brief it to them in the brief).

Depending on flight schedules, reservist may not be sitting around available when you need them (kinda like your local PD), but you'll know who the AD IPs are who put in extra time to help students and those who you need to steer clear off. Theres absolutely no shame in approaching an IP and asking them how to do X, Y or Z and asking when they'll be available to teach it to you (pro-tip: don't wait until the last minute).

As a new Pro-Rec Y SNA awaiting OCS and just reading this forum to pass time and gain supplemental knowledge on my future career, these things give me a little peace of mind. I have a few hours of flight time behind a Cessna 182 and a Robinson R-22, but with my bachelor's degree being a Public Service Management degree and seeing a lot of my fellow Pro-Rec Y's being pilots already or Aeronautical and Engineering majors, it has me nervous about being the bottom of the barrel select. I am reading up on recommended books from aviators that helped them with concepts, so hopefully my work ethic is what these recent posts have been talking about. I am sacrificing a security-blanket job on the home front to pursue my dreams in a territory of unknown. I've worked at this for 6 years and plan on grabbing this opportunity by the horns. I plan to train like my (and others) life depends on, because in the fleet my life (and others) will.

Thank you everyone for the input on this forum!

 

[Uncle Fester]

...but with my bachelor's degree being a Public Service Management degree and seeing a lot of my fellow Pro-Rec Y's being pilots already or Aeronautical and Engineering majors, it has me nervous about being the bottom of the barrel select...

If you've read some of the other posts on the subject, you'll see that, as far as the Navy's concerned, major doesn't really matter. If you needed to be an AeroEng type to be a pilot, they'd make it a requirement. At no point in flight school will anyone ever sit you down and ask you to design a wing, and the math doesn't go beyond arithmetic.

I've known great pilots and FOs who came from all backgrounds and walks of life. I've also seen professional pilots and engineers wash out of Navy flight school. Work ethic matters a lot more than education.

 

[SoopurHero816]

Sounds good to me. Thank you!

 

[jugg34naut]

Through my flight school experience I actually only saw USNA and ROTC people attrite. A few OCS people would get a IPC or FPC but pass and be placed back into the syllabus.

Could it be because OCSers don't necessarily have a "safety net"?

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Could it be because OCSers don't necessarily have a "safety net"?

What do you mean "safety net"

 

[jugg34naut]

As a new Pro-Rec Y SNA awaiting OCS and just reading this forum to pass time and gain supplemental knowledge on my future career, these things give me a little peace of mind. I have a few hours of flight time behind a Cessna 182 and a Robinson R-22, but with my bachelor's degree being a Public Service Management degree and seeing a lot of my fellow Pro-Rec Y's being pilots already or Aeronautical and Engineering majors, it has me nervous about being the bottom of the barrel select. I am reading up on recommended books from aviators that helped them with concepts, so hopefully my work ethic is what these recent posts have been talking about. I am sacrificing a security-blanket job on the home front to pursue my dreams in a territory of unknown. I've worked at this for 6 years and plan on grabbing this opportunity by the horns. I plan to train like my (and others) life depends on, because in the fleet my life (and others) will.

Thank you everyone for the input on this forum!

I had the very same thoughts going into flight school. I was a Spanish language major and my peers were coming in as electrical engineers and no shit, we had an astrophysicist. Talk about feeling underwhelming. I wasn't the best in my class but I wasn't the near the bottom. Flight school isn't about how smart you are really but how quickly you can catch on to what they are trying to teach you. The way success is measured in flight school is very different from who is the smartest. If you can learn simple things, do those simple things really well to get ahead of the plane, and can crush your briefs you'll kill flight school.

 

[jugg34naut]

What do you mean "safety net"

Just that I've seen a couple attitudes where the individuals didn't try to do their best because they thought, whether rightly or not, that the Navy would continue with them despite failures. It was mostly tongue and cheek.

 

[zippy]

Just that I've seen a couple attitudes where the individuals didn't try to do their best because they thought, whether rightly or not, that the Navy would continue with them despite failures. It was mostly tongue and cheek.

What, did you go through flight school with a Senator's son or something?

There's only so much leeway each individual gets before they're kicked to the curb... that leeway does tend to very depending on the background of the person, but the end of the line comes sooner or later. Foreign Nationals probably have the greatest leeway, guys who have OLQ pink sheets and RRUs before they solo probably have the least, next to DUIs.

 

[jugg34naut]

What, did you go through flight school with a Senator's son or something?

There's only so much leeway each individual gets before they're kicked to the curb... that leeway does tend to very depending on the background of the person, but the end of the line comes sooner or later. Foreign Nationals probably have the greatest leeway, guys who have OLQ pink sheets and RRUs before they solo probably have the least, next to DUIs.

Yeah I agree 1000%. I was only trying to illustrate (fail) that it was an attitude that some guys in flight school had. They thought that if they failed flight school then they could go do something else in the Navy because they owed the Navy time.

 

[zippy]

At one point in recent history only 17% of DORs/Attrites were getting retained. It's all luck and timing.

 

[jugg34naut]

I only know of one or two that got a redes. One went to SNFO from SNA because he didn't like flying the plane but loved being in it. The other had a shit hot package and the Navy couldn't say no. Everybody else either didn't want the redes or didn't have the timing.

 

[Flash]

Could it be because OCSers don't necessarily have a "safety net"?

I guess you didn't see this quote from a former instructor putting to rest the notion that OCS folks were less likely to fail flight school.

We looked at backgrounds vs performance pretty closely when I was at Schools Command. There really was no statistically significant correlation between commissioning source and odds of success or failure. OCS kids washed out about as often as Academy and ROTC kids.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I only know of one or two that got a redes. One went to SNFO from SNA because he didn't like flying the plane but loved being in it. The other had a shit hot package and the Navy couldn't say no. Everybody else either didn't want the redes or didn't have the timing.

the majority of the aviation guys on the way out the door who made a stop at my NRD were NROTC/USNA, several gave me the impression they expected to get a redes.