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Another "praise the Raptor" article

Change "F-22" to "F-15" and insert "Navy A-4" just prior to "pilot's flagrant disregard" .....

.......and it's deja vu .... all over again ... :D

Ya know A4s I'm starting to think you have an A4 situation for every topic. :icon_tong

I can see it now, there they were the AF in their Sopwith Camels and me down low in my trusty A4 from out of nowhere. :icon_lol:
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Ya know A4s I'm starting to think you have an A4 situation for every topic. :icon_tong

I can see it now, there they were the AF in their Sopwith Camels and me down low in my trusty A4 from out of nowhere. :icon_lol:
You mean .... something like this, ascot breath .... ???

fightsondm0.jpg
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor

snake020

Contributor
From the story I've heard, this happened during an exercise in Alaska with VFA-14 or VFA-41...

So far I've heard this took place at Red Flag AK, Red Flag Nellis, Langley, AF claiming Navy broke safety rules but the 22 pilot was an right hounorable gentlemanly host... is there any real truth out there besides a Rhino shot down a raptor?
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
So far I've heard this took place at Red Flag AK, Red Flag Nellis, Langley, AF claiming Navy broke safety rules but the 22 pilot was an right hounorable gentlemanly host... is there any real truth out there besides a Rhino shot down a raptor?


Yeah, yeah, yeah....it was a VFA-11 Red Ripper det to Tyndall AFB.

It was snapshot guns opportunity. The first "frame" is at 1000' which is where you knock it off by Training Rules. The next frame is inside 1000 so a Knock it off should be called and any shot at that point is disallowed for violating Training Rules. That's where the F-22 Mafia and their legions of fans get worked up. One frame is not enough for valid shot criteria so they cry foul and the fact the 1000' bubble was penetrated is what they use to denigrate the Super Hornet pilot. That spin is used to take the discussion away from fact that F-22 is nose low (likely slow and trying to buy back some knots), defensive and the Super Hornet has his pipper dead center on his back.

Training Rules have a lot of specific rules for safety and you have to honor them or your shot is invalid. During FFARP in 1985, my squadron was fighting VF-43 and their skipper, "Hostile", was known as being a real fangs out scrapper and we ended up in a 1 v 1 with him in an F-5E. As fight went downhill enrgy wise, I could see the hard deck (10,000') approaching and called for a level turn (first person to bust the hard deck is ruled dead). I knew he'd sell his soul for a shot on us and he did executing a low yo-yo to get a better angle and some smack back on his jet. In doing so he went several hundred feet below the hard deck. This was on the TACTS Range so it wouldn't be a question of who got to the backboard first as it was all on the big screen. He was hopping mad when the engagement was replayed and he saw that we honored the hard deck and he busted it not realizing where he was altitude wise. We used the rules against him, but it's an artificial rule as is the bubble. You fight like you train and some people have been bitten by that and others rewarded. In the real world, there is no 1000' bubble and the hard deck is the dirt.

Gun camera frame inside 1000' bubble
f18fgunf22031pc.jpg
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
....It was snapshot guns opportunity. .....That's where the F-22 Mafia and their legions of fans get worked up....

The more things change ..... and a slightly different take on what "Joe" said:

Snapshots work. They have ... many times, in the "real world". They might not "count" for a training "kill", but really, it's all about the size of one's AF penis when the discussion becomes this esoteric. I've experience a similar syndrome in play at Nellis and Tyndall on occasion. :)

I'm not gonna knock safety ... to do so would be foolish and safety is what's kept me alive at the end of the day. But you fight how you train, like "Joe" says. Safety is safety and I won't contradict that -- but there are hard decks and there are hard decks -- and one 10,000' in the air is not the same as one at sea level. We used to close to < 500' regularly for a guns shot. AND that is EXACTLY why I believe the AF is f-ked up with some of their training. They were pulling the same crap 25-30 years ago -- gaming the system; this time to protect their new F-22 baby -- and wondering why we called 'em on it and had little respect for them -- even for their best in some cases.

One of my gun instructors in VT-4 was an AF exchange pilot -- he was the "Gun Boss" and bemoaned the state of AF flight training compared to the Navy even at that young & tender stage of our training ...

The Adversary's ideal was NOT to win ...
at least, not necessarily :) ... but to TEACH. But to "teach" -- the "student" has got to be "teachable", and the AF weren't, by and large. They gamed the system and tried to win on countless occasions when we visited them as they "knew the rules of the game". Good, bad, and average .... that's what they did for a living -- fly airplanes, yes?? We were just Squids .... Reserve ones, in point of fact, so what did we know .... ??? :)

'Cept the "real world" isn't about 1000' bubbles and 10,000 decks. God help us if we go up against a "capable" airborne adversary ... one who makes up his own rules. And sometimes takes snap shots ... ;)

heyjoe said:
...You fight like you train and some people have been bitten by that and others rewarded. In the real world, there is no 1000' bubble and the hard deck is the dirt....
 

jarhead

UAL CA; retired hinge
pilot
just to throw it out there ... fleet A-A training rules I'm used to are "break off gun attacks at 1000' to pass no closer than 500'".

somebody from the SH community pipe up ... isn't that a BATR cue at about 11 o'clock from the pipper (the little circle) in HeyJoe's pic? if so, wouldn't that be considered in the debrief as "a valid snapshot, but invalid for kill due to training rules"?

i read a little bit of the thread at Baseops on this topic ... everybody talking about how the SH is about to overshoot and would be dead shortly after this pic was taken, yet it only takes one 20mm bullet, and if that is a BATR cue at 11 o'clock, that Raptor would be hurting. also, looking at the HUD pic, 18.5 AOA/183 knots/nose down? that SH isn't even close to max performance

everybody talking about training rules violation with this Snapshot, nobody is saying anything about how footage from a classified HUD tape made it to the 'net? or is SH HUD tapes not classified?

S/F
 

Catmando

Keep your knots up.
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor

'Cept the "real world" isn't about 1000' bubbles and 10,000 decks. God help us if we go up against a "capable" airborne adversary ... one who makes up his own rules. And sometimes takes snap shots ... ;)
I was fortunate enough to experience and to survive the "wild-west" days of Fightertown USA when there weren't really any rules (or if there were . . . ? )

On my FAM-3 on departure, going feet wet over Torrey Pines and beginning our climb, an F-8 jumped us. Asking my instructor if I should turn on him, he hesitated, then said we better not . . . since I had only 4 hours in type and we were only about 5k AGL. In fact, it was not uncommon then for guys to hang around, just offshore and jump any flights coming out on the Seawolf departure.

Likewise, the Date Farm (a square green patch in the midst of desert brown) just west of the Salton Sea was usually good for some impromptu ACM – always somebody there looking for a fight. With any extra gas on RTB, we always went over there to see who we could see. ;) In fact, on every training flight our heads were always on a swivel – you never knew when you had to interrupt your training and do a few turns with somebody who jumped you.

Then the Israelis taught us how to shoot guns. They laughed at our 1,000ft firing ranges and taught us that if you fill the windscreen with the enemy, it's hard to miss.

On the positive side, all this was excellent training for SEA, where except for ROE, there weren't any rules, and where anything could happen at anytime. And where we never went above 12,000ft ever, always CAPed at 3,500 AGL, and often egressed near ground effect. Most all engagements were well below 10K, and vectors were in the weeds.

On the negative side, Darwinian natural selection took over in those days with few rules and a wild west mentality. A lot of men and equipment planted themselves into the dirt or the deep, which naturally later led to hard and soft decks, and the many other needed safety rules.

But if you lived through it, it was fabulous fun and great, real world training. :D
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Catmando,

Was the "Never above 12K" for SAM reasons, to be near the dirt to hide in the weeds, or something else?

My not-versed-in-ACM behind would think that altitude would increase your energy state and give you PE to trade off for KE, but I don't know jack about ACM.
 
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