Blackhawk / CRJ-700 Midair

[Roger_Waveoff]

My thoughts are focused at evaluating a) the impact on visual identification of conflict aircraft due to NVG light source volume/saturation, b) combined with incomplete conflict aircraft call out ("CRJ" vs "CRJ at 11 o'clock"), and c)combined with ~200' above max route altitude.
I am looking at this as a prior DOSS who was part of the investigation team for two Class-A mishaps.
No where do I look for blame, rather causal factors.

I would be very curious to see a video, or better yet, ride along in a 60 doing that same route while wearing NVGs. I would imaging the halos, de-gaining, and general incompatibility of the city lights are insane around that area and it wouldn't be as easy as anyone thinks to pick out an airplane among all of it.

At the risk of Monday morning quarterbacking, I have to wonder if there's ever any consideration (I imagine there may be in the near future) to flying that route unaided. I get it, as a (sort of) rotary-wing pilot, 99% of the time we fly aided especially at low altitude, but that doesn't mean you HAVE to.

 

[Swanee]

I know that at 500 (consistent) hours one is finally getting comfortable flying a jet and at 1000 (consistent) hours one should be very comfortable at flying it as well as have all of their expected quals. Is 500 hours considered experienced in the military helo world? Would 500 hours make a Marine helo pilot competitive to fly in HMX-1?

I'm genuinely curious and not trying to point fingers.
Thanks
S/F

Speaking informally with the former Army -47 pilot in my squadron: regular commissioned pilots don't fly as much as the Warrant Os. Lately, neither group has been flying a lot because all of the troops have been sitting at home.

Enter the "peacetime military" discussion. A company commander who checked all of the boxes for development might only have 500 hours in the airplane and that might be normal.

The CWO IP might only have 1000, and again, that could be normal. They may not have had the deployment opportunities to really build time.

Edited to fix the the absolute shit show that was my grammar from typing on my phone.

 

[phrogdriver]

I would be very curious to see a video, or better yet, ride along in a 60 doing that same route while wearing NVGs. I would imaging the halos, de-gaining, and general incompatibility of the city lights are insane around that area and it wouldn't be as easy as anyone thinks to pick out an airplane among all of it.

At the risk of Monday morning quarterbacking, I have to wonder if there's ever any consideration (I imagine there may be in the near future) to flying that route unaided. I get it, as a (sort of) rotary-wing pilot, 99% of the time we fly aided especially at low altitude, but that doesn't mean you HAVE to.

It might be too early to say that they were aided.

At least in the USMC you needed 2 aircrew for NVG flights and one for unaided night.

There was only one CC on the 60.

The white phosphorous NVGs are apparently way better for halos, but that close to DC it’s probably easier to see unaided than aided.

 

[phrogdriver]

RIP.

x.com

x.com

So NOT a left-handed Jewish transgender lesbian? That was a lie?

Color me fucking shocked.

 

[Gatordev]

Taking a step back from this particular incident and just looking at NVGs in urban areas in general, my perception is that de-goggling isn't something really discussed enough. I also perceive it's not something that's in the Army's (and possibly the USMC's) vocabulary that you would be willing to fly around without NVGs at night. It did seem to be something mentioned regularly when flying around Jax and SD (certain parts) on the Navy side. Both myself and whomever I was flying with would regularly state to each other, "hey, I'm flipping up my goggles around the city," and there was no question about whether that was cool to do so you could see.

Also, another perspective...as someone who is constantly going from LLL to cities w/ higher traffic densities and bright lights, single-piloted, I routinely flip up my goggles about 2 minutes out when going to a city hospital. Sometimes earlier around Jax just because of the sprawl (and the Sheriff always hanging out around a certain "urban" area).

One of our company IPs is a former SOAR Hawk guy and when I first flew with him and we were discussing currency, I mentioned that generally when I go on a call, I'm logging 2 HNVGOs and one unaided landing. He incredulously asked why would I do that? I explained why would I go into a high light concentration area where I can't see colors and break out traffic and then land on a bright ass pad when I could just degoggle. His response, "Okay, that's fair."

Again, I just don't think it's something discussed enough, but when a reasonable person is made to have that discussion, the actual "solution" can be more nuanced.

 

[gparks1989]

One of our company IPs is a former SOAR Hawk guy and when I first flew with him and we were discussing currency, I mentioned that generally when I go on a call, I'm logging 2 HNVGOs and one unaided landing. He incredulously asked why would I do that? I explained why would I go into a high light concentration area where I can't see colors and break out traffic and then land on a bright ass pad when I could just degoggle. His response, "Okay, that's fair."

While I'm not as experienced as any helo guy when it comes to flying aided, I'm genuinely shocked that de-goggling before landing in an environment like that isn't completely standardized. I'd assume that blooming + lack of depth perception would negate a lot of their benefit.

Also perhaps showing my ignorance, but I'd assume that flying on a published helo route in a 60 with EFIS/glass cockpit would diminish the need to fly with goggles.

 

[Hotdogs]

Taking a step back from this particular incident and just looking at NVGs in urban areas in general, my perception is that de-goggling isn't something really discussed enough. I also perceive it's not something that's in the Army's (and possibly the USMC's) vocabulary that you would be willing to fly around without NVGs at night. It did seem to be something mentioned regularly when flying around Jax and SD (certain parts) on the Navy side. Both myself and whomever I was flying with would regularly state to each other, "hey, I'm flipping up my goggles around the city," and there was no question about whether that was cool to do so you could see.

De-goggling in and around big cities is common Marine air. Most Marine helicopters pilots will fly some or a good portion of the LA, Nola, SD, or DC helo routes unaided/goggles up, but always briefed before walking. Not always the case and heavily dependent on mission and light level.

Speaking informally with the former Army -47 pilot in my squadron: regular commissioned pilots don't fly as much as the Warrant Os. Lately, neither group has been flying a lot because all of the troops have been sitting at home.

Enter the "peacetime military" discussion. A company commander who checked all of the boxes for development might only have 500 hours in the airplane and that might be normal.

The CWO IP might only have 1000, and again, that could be normal. They may not have had the deployment opportunities to really build time.

1000hr IP, and 500hr CP is a common crew pairing set up in most squadrons that I’ve seen. It would also be an acceptable combat crew pair in OEF. Most NSI check rides are around or above the 800-900hr mark. I somewhat cringe when people say “it’s a readiness issue because of (insert politician here) policy.” Not saying you’re insinuating that either, but I’ve read it in the social media zeitgeist recently. That hasn’t been the case for many years in most communities, and typically executive transport units are always damn near #1 priority for funding, manpower, and maintenance support. I can’t speak for the Army, but if a unit has a COOP mission, then I would be shocked if they were starving for all of the above. If a unit has a readiness issue it is likely self-inflicted or a niche community issue nowadays.

While I'm not as experienced as any helo guy when it comes to flying aided, I'm genuinely shocked that de-goggling before landing in an environment like that isn't completely standardized. I'd assume that blooming + lack of depth perception would negate a lot of their benefit.

Also perhaps showing my ignorance, but I'd assume that flying on a published helo route in a 60 with EFIS/glass cockpit would diminish the need to fly with goggles.

Cities are weird. On a really low light night, you could be bloomed out looking at downtown to your right, and then spot your landing site in a park down to your left, and it’s a fucking ink well for visual acuity, depth perception, closure rate, aspect, etc. Standardized at heliports or airports? Sure. There’s probably not a panacea for all situations in those environments though.

 

[Swanee]

1000hr IP, and 500hr CP is a common crew pairing set up in most squadrons that I’ve seen. It would also be an acceptable combat crew pair in OEF. Most NSI check rides are around or above the 800-900hr mark. I somewhat cringe when people say “it’s a readiness issue because of (insert politician here) policy.” Not saying you’re insinuating that either, but I’ve read it in the social media zeitgeist recently. That hasn’t been the case for many years in most communities, and typically executive transport units are always damn near #1 priority for funding, manpower, and maintenance support. I can’t speak for the Army, but if a unit has a COOP mission, then I would be shocked if they were starving for all of the above. If a unit has a readiness issue it is likely self-inflicted or a niche community issue nowadays.

The comment was about how we're not deploying like we had been from 2004-2020. Fewer deployments mean fewer hours. Fewer combat ops means the other stuff starts to become important again (you have to break out from the crowd somehow). So when someone asks, "why did they *only* have 500 and 1000 hours when previously it may have taken a lot more hours to get to that unit?" It's a reasonable answer to say, "there haven't been the opportunities to build hours like there was in the recent past "

I would also be surprised if this unit was underfunded.

I don't think any political policies would have any real influences on this mishap. Though I'm sure the politicians will try to tell us otherwise.

 

[lowflier03]

We would routinely have one pilot flip their goggles up when in urban areas. That way we get the benefits of both and whoever had the best SA could take control.

Split aided/unaided used to be a community taboo in my early days when the old guard were still distrustful of the tech.

 

[phrogdriver]

S

We would routinely have one pilot flip their goggles up when in urban areas. That way we get the benefits of both and whoever had the best SA could take control.

Split aided/unaided used to be a community taboo in my early days when the old guard were still distrustful of the tech.

I don’t think it has to do with distrust of NVG tech. Splitting aided/unaided up adds CRM issues, since one crew member might be calling out traffic or obstacles the other can’t see or sees differently.

When I flew for Baltimore police, we were 100% unaided. There was no point goggling at all when nearly the whole op area was urban.

 

[JTS11]

When I flew for Baltimore police, we were 100% unaided. There was no point goggling at all when nearly the whole op area was urban.

Just curious, is that standard among various LE agencies, or is it personal preference depending on the operating environment? Aren't most LE helo ops single-piloted as well? Thx

 

[robav8r]

Genuinely honest question here: if the WO was the IP, would he be sitting in the left seat while the CPT was in the right? Assuming the WO was the IP and also signed for the A/C? Lastly, the CPTs activities with the last administration has folks wondering why she would have that much free time when upgrading/qualifying/studying/in the sims should be her priority. No visibility on the 12th’s flight hour program, was just wondering if someone at her stage of flying in the Army normally has that much discretionary time.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Genuinely honest question here: if the WO was the IP, would he be sitting in the left seat while the CPT was in the right? Assuming the WO was the IP and also signed for the A/C? Lastly, the CPTs activities with the last administration has folks wondering why she would have that much free time when upgrading/qualifying/studying/in the sims should be her priority. No visibility on the 12th’s flight hour program, was just wondering if someone at her stage of flying in the Army normally has that much discretionary time.

Can't speak for the Army, but I'd imagine it would be similar to a first tour flying aviator, moving to some sort of non-flying shore tour, then coming back to flying for disassociated tour?.....not sure if we send JO's to legislative/aide type jobs in DC, but it wouldn't surprise me if we do.

 

[Brett327]

why she would have that much free time when upgrading/qualifying/studying/in the sims should be her priority.

Huh? What activities are you referring to exactly? Her previous ground job?

You insinuating that she was a slacker is pretty fucking low, Rob. WTF?

 

[robav8r]

Huh? What activities are you referring to exactly? Her previous ground job?

You insinuating that she was a slacker is pretty fucking low, Rob. WTF?

I’m talking about her duties at the White House as a liaison/aide. The duties she was performing on Jan 5th of this year. I genuinely didn’t know if the 12th took low hour, first tour pilots for a job that has a pretty important scope of responsibilities.