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Deployment related questions

AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
I mostly agree but I think you're underestimating the overall utility of sport/gi BJJ.

If you practice sport BJJ you can train/spar at levels up to and at 100% more consistently and with drastically reduced levels of injury than you can other arts. In addition you are all but completely ensuring domination in any ground fight. The athleticism, lethality, and overall physical literacy developed from training sport BJJ is worth a lot. The disparity between an untrained person and a person training for just a few months is probably insurmountable, if they were to fight each other that is.

I'm not debating that BJJ can be a great tool if you're well practiced and you understand its limitations and your own. My argument is that the Navy cherry-picked a handful of moves, stripped them of all context, purport them to be the be-all, end-all of hand-to-hand combat, and then provide just 3 or 4 weeks of training. There is no months of training, no expectation or provision for mastery, and once the Sailors return to the ship, they have very little time or exposure to follow-on training.

Granted, the concern about going to the ground in certain situations is justified but thinking that training BJJ will giving you a training scar in that area is probably an overreaction. That said I don't see the point of doing self-defense BJJ as you're foregoing the benefits of sport BJJ only for a negligible gain (if there's much of one at all) in real-world scenarios.

Again, there isn't a practice of BJJ going on. Sailors are being trained and shoved out the door. There are basic training events that have to occur monthly and quarterly on board ship, but it's the very basic minimum needed for VBSS teams to prove to the Navy that they are "ready" to perform the mission. I had to fight constantly for time in the ship's schedule to get the bare minimum time for my guys to practice defensive tactics (What these BJJ moves are called), cuffing, and CQB drills. And I was the XO and controlled the schedule! There are so many operational and administrative demands on a ship's crew that VBSS is often one of the most collateral of collateral duties.

There's no sensei on board drilling these guys a few times a week. There's no active practice of sparring or kumite or kata or kihon. I return to my point that the Navy is not actually serious about regular Sailors performing the VBSS mission and hasn't been since they disbanded the HVBSS squadrons and have nearly completely abandoned it now that SEALs, Force Recon, MARSOC, USCG TACLET, USCG MSRT, and USCG MSST teams are not nearly as busy in the desert as they were. If the Navy were serious, they would block out more time for training, establish a MCMAP-style program, and bring back HVBSS squadrons.

Like in-shore boat teams, coastal patrol, and riverine squadrons, the Navy's regular VBSS (i.e. non-SPECWAR or SOF) capability and program ebbs and flows with operational need. Maybe if we ever go back to war we'll see a return.

What are the injury rates one might be subjected to when practicing BJJ?

Not as high as you may think. I have more injuries from my time playing football than I ever sustained practicing martial arts. When sparring or training with a partner, you are taught to be very cognizant of their safety and not injuring them. You often start slowly and gradually increase speed. Rarely do you go full speed so as not to harm your partner. This goes hand in hand with the training you receive to fall and be thrown properly so you avoid injury when you are sparring.

I think the injury rates for the Navy are a lot higher in VBSS training because it is so devoid of the context and extra training that you receive in the actual martial art. We had four or five injuries (My memory is a bit hazy) out of a class of 30 when I went through the Non-Compliant Boarding course. Three of those injuries sent the Sailors home, disenrolling them from training. Coming from a traditional East Asian martial arts background, I was dismayed by the nonchalance the instructors had as it was clear that injuries were common in the program and very few of them had any training or desire to try and curb them. We were also taught what I would consider high risk movements that can cause injury if not done properly or with good technique and the instructors would goad students into doing these full speed the first or second attempt because "motivation." Thankfully (or perhaps unfortunately), the VBSS program for regular Sailors seems to be getting shelved as SURFOR is slowly killing it piece by piece in favor of SOF personnel.
 

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
There used to be an MS Co-Op program for TPS selectees. They went to NPS (or AFIT later), did 1yr of master's classes, and then went to TPS. They were awarded a MS after TPS graduation. However, my understanding is that coop is no more and folks now get credit for TPS towards an MS at various schools.

Yeah, I believe that program went away a long time ago....
 

HSMPBR

Not a misfit toy
pilot
...regular Sailors...
Regular Sailors on ships ask to use the crane in the helo hangar to hoist themselves up with a safety harness so that they can “fly” while LARPing. I do not want them knowing how to do kung fu. Guns are fine because they’re usually locked up, and when they’re broken out there’s an armed adult somewhere. Last thing we need is a really tactical gunners mate whose very hands have become deadly weapons.
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Regular Sailors on ships ask to use the crane in the helo hangar to hoist themselves up with a safety harness so that they can “fly” while LARPing.
iu
 

AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
Regular Sailors on ships ask to use the crane in the helo hangar to hoist themselves up with a safety harness so that they can “fly” while LARPing. I do not want them knowing how to do kung fu. Guns are fine because they’re usually locked up, and when they’re broken out there’s an armed adult somewhere. Last thing we need is a really tactical gunners mate whose very hands have become deadly weapons.

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. The Surface Navy has been relying on those "super tactical gunner's mates" for the last two decades to perform maritime interception operations (the technical term for VBSS ops) for the last two decades. And that "armed adult" handing out sidearms at the armory is usually one of those "super tactical gunner's mates" that you don't like. I don't think I've ever heard something more condescending towards our Sailors in a long while.
 

HSMPBR

Not a misfit toy
pilot
You obviously have feelings here. I don’t.

I took a clear shot at one of the weirdest things I’ve seen occur on a DDG, and then I linked one of the more timeless duffel blog articles.

If to you it seems like I truly dislike sailors or don’t want VBSS teams armed, then your SWO ATO/boarding officer complex is showing. I would encourage you to lighten up, take the joke, appreciate snark, and please don’t do the jiu jitsu on me.
 

nodropinufaka

Well-Known Member
I have no idea what the hell you're talking about. The Surface Navy has been relying on those "super tactical gunner's mates" for the last two decades to perform maritime interception operations (the technical term for VBSS ops) for the last two decades. And that "armed adult" handing out sidearms at the armory is usually one of those "super tactical gunner's mates" that you don't like. I don't think I've ever heard something more condescending towards our Sailors in a long while.

to be fair. He isn’t wrong. There is not enough training for VBSS teams.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Guns are fine because they’re usually locked up, and when they’re broken out there’s an armed adult somewhere. Last thing we need is a really tactical gunners mate whose very hands have become deadly weapons.
The fact that this attitude persists on active duty is shameful. We are ALL adults in the military, and if military members can't be trusted to handle firearms safely, we should take a hard look in the mirror at how we've failed as an institution.

Why does an "armed adult" matter if we're issuing weapons? What are they going to do, shoot their shipmates in the head if they screw up?

Edit: Ah, yes, the old "I was just joking" reaction when it falls flat . . .
 
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AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
to be fair. He isn’t wrong. There is not enough training for VBSS teams.

If that was the point he was trying to get across, then I agree. Most importantly, they need the time to train and really focus on that training. VBSS teams learn 90% of the same shit SEALs do (at least concerning the VBSS/MIO mission set) but the biggest difference is that SEALs/Force Recon/EOD/TACLET/MSRT have WAAAAAAY more time to practice, rehearse, and train those particular skills.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
When The TR CO decided He wanted aVBSS in the months following Desert Storm after we repositioned from the Persian Gulf to the Red Sea. He wanted to be part of enforcing what was basically a naval blockade of Iraq. I was elected to firm and lead it as I was Asst. Weapons DH, an OOD and a former Army infantryman from my pre-Navy Army Reserve & National Guard days.

I had a Utility boat and crew, AOs and GMs for security, QM and SM for bridge search, a YN log keeper, a 4 SKs for hold/cargo search, and 4 various engineering rates to search the engine rooms. The Gunner was my #2 and the GMC my Chief. So 2 officers m, 1 Chief and 21 Es plus my boat crew.

Our training was 2 days. A 4 hour classroom session with the BattleGroups USCG liaison, 4 hours with the TR’s Marine Det trying time learn a smattering of close quarters combat, and a couple of hours shooting .45s, M16 and shot guns off the fan tail. We also took a few hours climbing up and down the Jacobs ladder on the side of the BG’s USNS replenishment auxiliary.

And off we went... Totally unprepared without adequate training but full of piss & vinegar ready to take on the bad guys. In retrospect, we got lucky. We did 2 to 3 boarding school a day for about 3 weeks. It was fun.

Of course it pissed off the small boy CO that was designated the host for my team and boat for the day. Totally fucked up their operations to appease the CVN CO with the Admiral’s ear.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
When The TR CO decided He wanted aVBSS in the months following Desert Storm after we repositioned from the Persian Gulf to the Red Sea. He wanted to be part of enforcing what was basically a naval blockade of Iraq. I was elected to firm and lead it as I was Asst. Weapons DH, an OOD and a former Army infantryman from my pre-Navy Army Reserve & National Guard days.

I had a Utility boat and crew, AOs and GMs for security, QM and SM for bridge search, a YN log keeper, a 4 SKs for hold/cargo search, and 4 various engineering rates to search the engine rooms. The Gunner was my #2 and the GMC my Chief. So 2 officers m, 1 Chief and 21 Es plus my boat crew.

Our training was 2 days. A 4 hour classroom session with the BattleGroups USCG liaison, 4 hours with the TR’s Marine Det trying time learn a smattering of close quarters combat, and a couple of hours shooting .45s, M16 and shot guns off the fan tail. We also took a few hours climbing up and down the Jacobs ladder on the side of the BG’s USNS replenishment auxiliary.

And off we went... Totally unprepared without adequate training but full of piss & vinegar ready to take on the bad guys. In retrospect, we got lucky. We did 2 to 3 boarding school a day for about 3 weeks. It was fun.

Of course it pissed off the small boy CO that was designated the host for my team and boat for the day. Totally fucked up their operations to appease the CVN CO with the Admiral’s ear.

I hate how spell correct adds and changes words...
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
When The TR CO decided He wanted aVBSS in the months following Desert Storm after we repositioned from the Persian Gulf to the Red Sea. He wanted to be part of enforcing what was basically a naval blockade of Iraq. I was elected to firm and lead it as I was Asst. Weapons DH, an OOD and a former Army infantryman from my pre-Navy Army Reserve & National Guard days.

I had a Utility boat and crew, AOs and GMs for security, QM and SM for bridge search, a YN log keeper, a 4 SKs for hold/cargo search, and 4 various engineering rates to search the engine rooms. The Gunner was my #2 and the GMC my Chief. So 2 officers m, 1 Chief and 21 Es plus my boat crew.

Our training was 2 days. A 4 hour classroom session with the BattleGroups USCG liaison, 4 hours with the TR’s Marine Det trying time learn a smattering of close quarters combat, and a couple of hours shooting .45s, M16 and shot guns off the fan tail. We also took a few hours climbing up and down the Jacobs ladder on the side of the BG’s USNS replenishment auxiliary.

And off we went... Totally unprepared without adequate training but full of piss & vinegar ready to take on the bad guys. In retrospect, we got lucky. We did 2 to 3 boarding school a day for about 3 weeks. It was fun.

Of course it pissed off the small boy CO that was designated the host for my team and boat for the day. Totally fucked up their operations to appease the CVN CO with the Admiral’s ear.
I remember reading an article in Proceedings written by a SEAL, arguing for more VBSS training to instill the warrior mindset and give small unit leadership opportunities, along with all of the direct reasons. 100% agreed. That one got tucked away in the good idea locker if I was to ever have an opportunity to be that guy in charge (still waiting ;) ).
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I remember reading an article in Proceedings written by a SEAL, arguing for more VBSS training to instill the warrior mindset and give small unit leadership opportunities, along with all of the direct reasons. 100% agreed. That one got tucked away in the good idea locker if I was to ever have an opportunity to be that guy in charge (still waiting ;) ).
Check. How about a C school (or similar) for VBSS, eligible to a certain subset of rates/designators who will likely be in a position to use them?

It occurs to me that, anecdotally, a lot of VBSS training appears to be just-in-time (JIT) training, on-the-job (OJT) training, and/or wheel reinvention.

We can debate the training duration, eligibility, location, and whether having the school would be required or optional for serving in a VBSS team. That's not the point. But any training to further professionalize the surface navy seems prudent to me, as an outside observer with no direct experience in it.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
Check. How about a C school (or similar) for VBSS, eligible to a certain subset of rates/designators who will likely be in a position to use them?

It occurs to me that, anecdotally, a lot of VBSS training appears to be just-in-time (JIT) training, on-the-job (OJT) training, and/or wheel reinvention.

We can debate the training duration, eligibility, location, and whether having the school would be required or optional for serving in a VBSS team. That's not the point. But any training to further professionalize the surface navy seems prudent to me, as an outside observer with no direct experience in it.
Once a sailor reports to a ship it's hard to get the time ashore to go to school and the money. As with most of the fleet, individual commands are largely left to ensure their own readiness.
 
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