goosegagnon2
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:watching3
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E and F Model Hornets
- Thread starter paikea
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:watching3
^^^
ACTUALLY ..... a "Roger Ball" call means the LSO has acknowledged the pilot's "Ball" call and the LSO is now controlling the pass. You can get a "Roger" call when the deck is fouled --- no clearance to land there. Besides ... "we" ---LSO's --- don't want the pilot to "assume" that he is going to land --- that dulls the mental sharpness required for the wave off IC-AR ... when, not if, it comes ... As it will ultimately come to ALL of us who do the landing thing-y at the blunt end of USS BOAT.
Another point: the PILOT should call the ball. NOT the NFO. I don't care what some of you do --- the pilot --- the guys driving and flying the ball --- should be the one to call it. If you can't fly and call the ball at the same time --- you shouldn't be doing it. It's fine to confer/confirm the ball and it's position with your NFO --- I always did --- but the guy FLYING has to confirm that he --- not a crewmember --- has the ball and is flying it.
Again, if you can't hack a ball call AND fly --- perhaps you should be selling shoes @ Penney's.... ???
ACTUALLY ..... a "Roger Ball" call means the LSO has acknowledged the pilot's "Ball" call and the LSO is now controlling the pass. You can get a "Roger" call when the deck is fouled --- no clearance to land there. Besides ... "we" ---LSO's --- don't want the pilot to "assume" that he is going to land --- that dulls the mental sharpness required for the wave off IC-AR ... when, not if, it comes ... As it will ultimately come to ALL of us who do the landing thing-y at the blunt end of USS BOAT.
Another point: the PILOT should call the ball. NOT the NFO. I don't care what some of you do --- the pilot --- the guys driving and flying the ball --- should be the one to call it. If you can't fly and call the ball at the same time --- you shouldn't be doing it. It's fine to confer/confirm the ball and it's position with your NFO --- I always did --- but the guy FLYING has to confirm that he --- not a crewmember --- has the ball and is flying it.
Again, if you can't hack a ball call AND fly --- perhaps you should be selling shoes @ Penney's.... ???
Sorry buddy, but that's just the way it's done these days. I know I'm dumbing it down a bit, but the youngsters will appreciate it. It does what it's told, or it gets the hose.A4sForever said:^^^
ACTUALLY ..... a "Roger Ball" call means the LSO has acknowledged the pilot's "Ball" call and the LSO is now controlling the pass. You can get a "Roger" call when the deck is fouled --- no clearance to land there. Besides ... "we" ---LSO's --- don't want the pilot to "assume" that he is going to land --- that dulls the mental sharpness required for the wave off IC-AR ... when, not if, it comes ... As it will ultimately come to ALL of us who do the landing thing-y at the blunt end of USS BOAT.
Another point: the PILOT should call the ball. NOT the NFO. I don't care what some of you do --- the pilot --- the guys driving and flying the ball --- should be the one to call it. If you can't fly and call the ball at the same time --- you shouldn't be doing it. It's fine to confer/confirm the ball and it's position with your NFO --- I always did --- but the guy FLYING has to confirm that he --- not a crewmember --- has the ball and is flying it.
Again, if you can't hack a ball call AND fly --- perhaps you should be selling shoes @ Penney's.... ???
Don't you hurt my dog, lady,
Brett
Not on my deck ... it's probably a good thing I'm not doing it these days.Brett327 said:
I'd just get into trouble for "talking back" to the Boss. But then ... the Boss always did what I wanted ... so we got along great. :icon_wink Besides, I want to hear the pilot's voice --- especially at night --- and especially when it's dark and nasty --- to get a feel for his mental state. I want to know if he's wet himself. I can't believe that stuff has changed ....
NFO's ... Diversity "Roger Ball" calls on the radio ???
A4sForever said:
2,000+ hours, 700+ traps and I made every "Ball" call. It was SOP for every squadron I was in.....RIO did ALL talking on radios unless safety of flight required immediate comm from pilot (pilots did acknowledge needles...ie "fly up and right") or made certain calls in ACM when it was more expedient for pilot to make a call.
That said, it would not have bothered me to have pilot make the ball call as it's really a front cockpit decision point....even though it's a crew concept, the grade on the greenie board is tagged to the pilot only.
heyjoe said:
So are the guys we hear in the Tomcats in the Gulf of Sidra audio I posted the NFO's or the pilots - it was ACM... I'll have to listen to it again, which isn't a problem
I assumed the guy saying"Fox 2 - shoot at him!" or something of the sort was the RIO and the guy saying "I don't have a fvcking lock!" was the pilot...
DanMav1156 said:So are the guys we hear in the Tomcats in the Gulf of Sidra audio I posted the NFO's or the pilots - it was ACM... I'll have to listen to it again, which isn't a problem
Virtually all the intially comm up to point of the two Fox Ones is from the lead RIO. Some of other voice comm is pilot making a call to AB and E-2 and/or AB responding ro making calls. They hadn't merged yet (this was a BVR encounter that turned into WVR) so it was not ACM. This was basically a classic intercept as practiced in the RAG. Fox 1 in the face and convert on anyone who is still flying after the merge for a Fox 2. Since the Floggers didn't maneuver, you could hardly call it ACM. So of the comm at that point was ICS (ie pilot complaining he didn't have a tone to the RIO).
The crew coordination recommendations out of Topgun are still something of a point of friction in the -18F community. As mentioned, the pilot couldn't do jack with the AWG-9 in the Tomcat, but in the Rhino, there's literally nothing the front seater is physically incapable of doing that the backseater is (uh, other than changing the ejection selector).
Further complicating the issue is that there are basically two distinct -18F models, as far as the WSO is concerned. With the early lot jets, the hand controllers are awkwardly designed and you can't change radar sets at all, so you might as well let the pilot do all the radar work. With the ACS jets, you've got a LOT more, and it's really optimized for the WSO to be able to do a lot more a lot faster. Now there's kind of a third type coming into play with the phased-array jets, which is all hush-hush...
Essentially, it will depend on your squadron's Tac SOP. In general, what has been said is correct, but there are three squadrons which have WSOs running the air-to-air radar, and at least two others where it kinda goes back and forth...
Hope that makes it clear as mud.
Further complicating the issue is that there are basically two distinct -18F models, as far as the WSO is concerned. With the early lot jets, the hand controllers are awkwardly designed and you can't change radar sets at all, so you might as well let the pilot do all the radar work. With the ACS jets, you've got a LOT more, and it's really optimized for the WSO to be able to do a lot more a lot faster. Now there's kind of a third type coming into play with the phased-array jets, which is all hush-hush...
Essentially, it will depend on your squadron's Tac SOP. In general, what has been said is correct, but there are three squadrons which have WSOs running the air-to-air radar, and at least two others where it kinda goes back and forth...
Hope that makes it clear as mud.
heyjoe said:
20,000+ hours, 500+ traps, 100,000+ passes waved (?), blah, blah, blah ..... right, we have experience, Joe. You and I. And if we had flown together (probably would have had a great time
) ... I would have called the ball. In my Air Wing(s) ... the LSO's made the landing rules --- not the NFO's nor the Black Shoes nor the rest of the Aviators. And for good reason.And sure, I understand. Lots of NFO's call the ball. And lots of people do it wrong. And lots of people are more concerned with "crew concept" minutia than they are with doing it right. I'm not: I was concerned with the safe and expeditious recovery of the Air Wing. Doing "it" right .... THAT was my responsibility.
You gotta' ask yourself: what is the point of the NFO calling the ball??? What is to be gained?? Other than allowing the NFO to feel "good" about himself or feel more a part of the carrier landing evolution??? And don't anyone start NFO-phobe'ing me on this --- I probably defend the honor of NFO's as much (more than?) as any other Aviator on this forum.
But what is the poor lonely F-18 (A-4, A-7, F-8, etc., etc. .. pick one) driver gonna' do??? Who is gonna' call the ball in his cockpit???
The guy flying should call the ball to show the LSO he's on the same page as the LSO. That's the way it should be done. Period.
A4sForever said:
20,000+ hours, 500+ traps, 100,000+ passes waved (?), blah, blah, blah ..... right, we have experience, Joe. You and I. And if we had flown together (probably would have had a great time
And sure, I understand. Lots of NFO's call the ball. And lots of people do it wrong. And lots of people are more concerned with "crew concept" minutia than they are with doing it right. I'm not: I was concerned with the safe and expeditious recovery of the Air Wing. Doing "it" right .... THAT was my responsibility.
You gotta' ask yourself: what is the point of the NFO calling the ball??? What is to be gained?? Other than allowing the NFO to feel "good" about himself or feel more a part of the carrier landing evolution??? And don't anyone start NFO-phobe'ing me on this --- I probably defend the honor of NFO's as much (more than?) as any other Aviator on this forum.
But what is the poor lonely F-18 (A-4, A-7, F-8, etc., etc. .. pick one) driver gonna' do??? Who is gonna' call the ball in his cockpit???
The guy flying should call the ball to show the LSO he's on the same page as the LSO. That's the way it should be done. Period.
No argument here...it was simply SOP and neither our Wing or squadron LSO(s)/Pilot COs took offense or tried to change it. Like I said earlier, it would not have bothered me if any of my frontseaters wanted to make that call...I merely wanted them to concentrate and get us on deck safely. Perhaps I should mention that during zip-lip, neither one of us was talking on the radio so it was a non-issue then. Regardless of type recovery, we worked out what the frontseater wanted from backseater in the brief (upon initial crewing, it became second nature after that). Some guys wanted altitude calls, some wanted VSI checks or onspeed deviations (airspeed indicator was much more accurate than AoA index indicator), some wanted a gentle burble call (TF-30s were notoriously slow in response time).
Other than allowing the NFO to feel "good" about himself or feel more a part of the carrier landing evolution??? That's a cheap shot, need Schnugg's umpire to weigh in on that one
heyjoe said:
A4s said:
heyjoe said:
Cheap shot?? No way. Like I said, my record for standing up for the NFO is well established on this forum and in my Navy days.
.... but you still didn't answer my question: What is to be gained from the NFO calling the ball?? I think a lot of "me pilot, you Jane" NFO-overreaction to things cockpit derive from the days when NFO's were second-hand citizens and were just starting to feel their self-worth in the overall mission --- I was there. But some people blurr the lines and confuse issues that matter in a desire to feel "good" about themselves and their value -- where.... ??? .... in their eyes?? Some people have a problem calling a spade a spade. That's not my problem ....
Yeah, again -- like I said -- I know -- some guys in our Air Wings had the NFO call the ball. We briefed 'em not to for the above reasons. I even experimented with the "phenomenon" myself --- I found it clumsy and inefficient. It's potentially unsafe to the degree that it can create confusion. "Do you or don't you have the ball"?? type of questions @ 1/2 of a mile astern on a dark and stormy night is not the place for the discussion.
We're (LSO's) doing this for the weakest pilot in the Air Wing --- not the solid sticks = the guys who are not easily distracted or "confused".
And my B/N's and I were talkin' ALL the time in my cockpits.
A4s said:
No matter what all the feel good people in the world think ....