E and F Model Hornets

[montellv]

All I'm saying is why not the WSO. If the ball call can't come out at 3/4 of a mile, it defaults to the pilot when he does get the ball. With ACLS and auto throttles, you may say pilot workload is down and he could call it even easier. I contend the link has been made at the ACLS needles call and at the absence of ACLS the ICS call of "ball" then the "103 Rhino ball, 5.5, auto" from the WSO doesn't affect the safety of a pass at all.

That being said, I think you have a great point that I will bring up to our paddles. Pilot making the ball call is more in line with the pilot to pilot comm mentality we have adopted.

 

[A4sForever]

All I'm saying is why not the WSO.

That is not an argument ... nor a reason. The NFO is NOT flying the ball. It does NOT matter WHAT he/she/it sees .... the PILOT and the LSO have to be on the same page and communicating with each other --- not the LSO communicating with the crewmember.

If the ball call can't come out at 3/4 of a mile, it defaults to the pilot when he does get the ball.

Sooooooooooo .... then it's O.K. for the pilot to call the ball ????

....With ACLS and auto throttles, you may say pilot workload is down and he could call it even easier. I contend the link has been made at the ACLS needles call and at the absence of ACLS the ICS call of "ball" then the "103 Rhino ball, 5.5, auto" from the WSO doesn't affect the safety of a pass at all.

That's because you're not an LSO .... :icon_wink

Q.E.D.

 

[montellv]

I would be interested to compare ramp strikes, hard landings, etc. between single and two seat A/C.
My last cruise, it seemed the single seat bubba's had a much rougher time behind the boat.

I agree completely with your assessment that the pilot should make the call. As someone else put it, we tend to follow SOP because...it's the SOP. Is that right? No. But as junior aircrew, we tend to loose the big picture and attack the closest alligator to the canoe as the saying goes. My arguments are a fairly weak attempt to defend a standard procedure that I don't fully agree with either.

You're right, not an LSO. I don't need 4 other people to tell me what I "really" saw. (Don't tell my paddles I said that)

 

[Brett327]

I would argue that in my jet, a pilot having to break his scan to look at the fuel totalizer, do any required mental math, smash his PTT to make that call while trying to transition from needles to the ball is marginally more distracting (thus negatively impacting) from your average pass than any ethereal "warm & fuzzy" said pilot would get from a voice to voice connection w/ Paddles. On balance, I see that as a net gain for the NFO ball call. Having said that, I completely understand where A4s is coming from and he makes a sound argument in his favor (obsequious caveat to preclude a violent a$$ raping from an old friend ). All in all, it would be interesting to see the hows and whys of the origin in SOP. I'm betting that it wasn't a self-esteem device for nascent NFOs, but one never knows - crazier sh!t has definitely gone down. The fact that it has been so prevalent for so long in SOP, seemingly without issue in the fleet, leads me to believe that it's not as big a deal as we're making it out to be.

Brett

 

[Pugs]

I've resisted weighing in on this but I'll take a stab then unload and extend.

All my boat time (502 traps) is Prowler time in different five squadrons and the right seat always called the ball so my perspective is not as broad as A-4's. When we've discussed it as crews the thoughts that came out.

In daytime, my pilots have said, "if you have the ball I have the ball" but I have always said "ball" on the ICS before saying it over the radio. This gives the pilot a chance to say “clara” if there's a giant booger on his side of the windscreen or something and that we're both at least seeing something on the lens. At night, I was always outside earlier than the pilot and able to provide input prior to him coming heads out. All of them have appreciated the “Good line-up Centered Ball” call (or whatever) as a heads up prior to coming heads up and the real Ball call at ¾ mile.

Now as A-4 has pointed out there is essentially a verbal contract between the pilot and LSO after the ball call that the LSO is in charge of the pass, but no less important is that contract between the NFO and the pilot that there’s a ball on the lens and that everyone sees it. The ECMO making the ball call just strikes me as a crew coordination issue. Of course I may be wrong just my take on it. LSO coordination and crew coordination are both good things and both vitally important to everyone having a slider later.

Another interesting issue was pilots (I‘ve had two over time) that wouldn’t fly in Command Eject when we first got that capability. Arguing that the odds and history of un-required ejections being far far far less than failures to eject in the envelope was futile with these guys. Only by pointing out that the pilot was making a decision for the guys in back as well as us in front that it was in the SOPs’ that it would be in command eject made an impact.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[East]

We say it doesn't make us twice as good but it is definetly better than one.

Triple that, Bro!
PPC/2P/FE better than two seat :icon_wink

 

[theobbq]

How good a view does the WSO really have of the ball coming into the groove anyway?

 

[Brett327]

How good a view does the WSO really have of the ball coming into the groove anyway?

The ECMO's view is the same as the pilot's.

Brett

 

[TurnandBurn55]

The only AESA jets are currently being held by VFA-106 (with VFA-213 markings until the Blacklions are safe for flight). Flew against the CAG bird the other day. Let's just say the improvements are... eye-watering.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

But what is the poor lonely F-18 (A-4, A-7, F-8, etc., etc. .. pick one) driver gonna' do??? Who is gonna' call the ball in his cockpit???

Sooo... you're basically saying "NFOs shouldn't do anything single-seat pilots do?" I find your logic... highly dubious... but I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether WSOs should call ATC, run radar, FLIR, CIT, MIDS... or... well, do anything that an -18C/E pilot would have to do himself. Don't tell me when you flew A-6s, you told your B/N "hey, only do things A-7 pilots can't do!"

All the LSOs here say they're just as happy to have the 'FOs call the ball simply because it means the pilot has nothing else on his mind other than flying a safe pass.

Yeah, all those single-seat guys CAN do it... they CAN do everything else also... sucks to be them. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[FA-18 Mousse]

Guys-
Calling the ball is NOT hard, nor does it take away from concentrating on the pass.
I have to fully agree with A4s on this one...the ball call is a "hand shake" between guy flying aircraft and LSO controlling the pass....period, dot!

 

[FA-18 Mousse]

Gents-
Promise this is my last post on this thread....
In referencing CV NATOPS, document clearly states "pilot should give ball call". Check it out!
Think some Air Wing Paddles out there need to do some training.
My three cents.....

 

[Goober]

Not trying to be a buzzkill, but let's leave AESA alone on here. Sorry.

 

[theobbq]

The ECMO's view is the same as the pilot's.

Granted cause the Prowler's a modified A6 but what about the hornet backseaters.

 

[raptor10]

Not trying to be a buzzkill, but let's leave AESA alone on here. Sorry.

Why, is it a "sensitive" (no pun intended) subject? I only brought it up because i'm taking Naval Weapons right now, and we are learning all sorts of cool things about radar and sonar, however the books were written during A4's day so they dont go over all the latest and greatest gizmos out there.

AESA, Aegis, SAR, IRST, EOTS, its all really interesting stuff that is important to know about, not just because its on an airplane, but because my tax dollars bought a piece of it (maybe just a tiny piece, but a piece nonetheless), now I dont want anyone to go Scooter Libby on us and get in trouble, but input from the fleet about it is great (especially when your a poli sci major who spends alot of time in class defending military spending)!