F-16 pilot angers civilian pilot

[mb1k]

From my Viper buddy:

---Hey Mr. Dumass, just because you CAN fly through a
MOA doesn't mean you should. What a tool. He flys
through the area in the meat of the block and no doubt
disrupts training. But hey, it probably "only" took
him 20 minutes (or 1 BFM set's worth of gas for the
vipers to hold) or so to clear the area at 100'ish
knots. Yeah I guess the guy shouldn't have rejoined
on him him but I'm guessing his idea of 20 ' is
different than reality. Hes lucky he didn't get the
navy supersonic bounce treatment.

I usaully made a point of crossing their nose so they
saw me and maybe it scared them into not transiting
again.

-------end quote--------

Plus, I'm sure this ambulance chaser was trawling for something just like this.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I'm with the Vipers on this one. Like the guy above said, maybe they shouldn't have joined up on him, but only a moron flies through an active MOA when the don't have to. At the very minimum, you need to do it with your head on a swivel, up their freq (available from ATC if you ask), and as close to the edges as you can. VFR flying is great, but it's a two way street. Freedom=Responsibility. ATC won't tell you what to do, but you're responsible not to hit anybody.

 

[wink]

The Gladden MOA is HUGE. I have flown through it VFR many times, though never an altitude that would put me in the heart of a fur ball. Because it is so large and hard to get around lots of VFR traffic transits the MOA. The Air Farce is used to it. If a couple of F-16s did join on these guys it was nothing more then poor judgment from some young hard chargers. The civ pilots are not so much stupid for flying through the MOA as they are candy asses for making a big deal out of the free air show. That is the lesson for the young Viper guys. Not everyone thinks they are as cool as they think they are. The list starts with me, but for different reasons.

 

[Harrier Dude]

The Gladden MOA is HUGE. I have flown through it VFR many times, though never an altitude that would put me in the heart of a fur ball. Because it is so large and hard to get around lots of VFR traffic transits the MOA. The Air Farce is used to it. If a couple of F-16s did join on these guys it was nothing more then poor judgment from some young hard chargers. The civ pilots are not so much stupid for flying through the MOA as they are candy asses for making a big deal out of the free air show. That is the lesson for the young Viper guys. Not everyone thinks they are as cool as they think they are. The list starts with me, but for different reasons.

Good point. I guess they "had to" fly through in terms of avoiding a ridiculous waste of time. In any case, if you're going to transit through an active MOA, it's still see and avoid, so every man for himself. It pays off to use some common sense and manners. They probably don't know that 15K are pretty standard PADS for WVR sets. Now they do.

 

[eye_malfunction]

Good point. I guess they "had to" fly through in terms of avoiding a ridiculous waste of time. In any case, if you're going to transit through an active MOA, it's still see and avoid, so every man for himself. It pays off to use some common sense and manners. They probably don't know that 15K are pretty standard PADS for WVR sets. Now they do.

So 15K to 20K is a typical altitude for tactical fixed wing aircraft (read: fighter or attack)? I always thought it would be somewhere much higher like 30K or so. Forgive my civilian ignorance.

 

[Rg9]

But does the FAA recognize "highly complex" add ons? Do I need additional training?

Not only do you need additional training, but you need it to be licensed by the FAA:

In addition, McCall is a commercial and instrument-rated pilot licensed by the Federal Aviation Administration and is the proud owner of a highly complex aircraft.

Not just any old commercial, instrument, or highly complex ratings will do.

 

[HuggyU2]

The Gladden MOA is HUGE. I have flown through it VFR many times, though never an altitude that would put me in the heart of a fur ball. Because it is so large and hard to get around lots of VFR traffic transits the MOA. The Air Farce is used to it. If a couple of F-16s did join on these guys it was nothing more then poor judgment from some young hard chargers. The civ pilots are not so much stupid for flying through the MOA as they are candy asses for making a big deal out of the free air show. That is the lesson for the young Viper guys. Not everyone thinks they are as cool as they think they are. The list starts with me, but for different reasons.

No, Wink, you are wrong. Being "used to it" has nothing to do with it. First, if it was a new 2Lt, he's not used to it. But I'm betting it was a seasoned Viper IP, as I don't believe a 2Lt student would do it,... twice. Whoever it was has seen it before as is a bit pissed about it. Like I get when it happens. And you are also wrong because it IS about them being stupid for flying throught the MOA, without flight following from Center.
You are also wrong in that he was going from Scottsdale to Corona, and clipping through Gladden shows he was unable/unwilling to fly an extra 20 miles,... maybe less. Gladden was certainly not in his way.
And, by the way, it's spelled "Air Force".

 

[SemperGumbi]

I think it said he had flight following.

 

[HuggyU2]

SG,
You are probably right. I didn't know for sure, but was referring to the "generic" VFR pilot that does it regularly in our MOA. I assumed Mr McCall hadn't, and called Center after the fact. In any case, I still feel it's wrong, irresponsible, and in this case, unnecessary due to the departure and arrival point.

 

[wink]

No, Wank, you are wrong. Being "used to it" has nothing to do with it.

It does in the sense that I meant it. Everyone with an AIM or copy of the FARs knows it is legal to fly thru a MOA. All military knows that VFR civ traffic is a threat. The AF controllers know the short cuts that VFR traffic takes. It happens every day. Maybe I should have used the word routine. As to the possible (I still don't believe it happened, certainly not as reported) culprits I would hope it was a nugget and not an IP. Training interrupted or not, I'd expect more from an O-3/O-4 IP. An experienced IP should have the collected wisdom and maturity to not let that sort of thing get to them. It is business as usual, like it or not, in that MOA. A nugget can be forgiven for lack of perspective and patience for the operational cross he must bear.

 

[mb1k]

Forgive my civilian ignorance.

Having that Hornet as your avatar just confuses me, makes me think you're active duty

 

[SemperGumbi]

Maybe I can use this as a springboard for the fact that civilian pilots don't get nearly enough training about dealing with Military Operating Areas, alert areas, and most of all VR Routes.

I think there is a mentality in the light-civil world from a lot of people that military pilots are better than they are, and have better systems than we really do. I know when I learned to fly little Archers (even at a part 141 school) we were told that it is OK to fly through MOA's and to just keep a lookout. They did say probably wasn't a good idea, but there were none too close to where the airport was ergo little more was ever said about it. There was kind of an underlying thought that those military aircraft have super-awesome radar (they must, because ALL military aircraft have air-to-air radar, right?) and the pilots are so good they will spot us a long way off.

While I will be the first to admit that I am in fact awesome, and a SH pilot, I don't always see every piece of traffic. And it gets a lot harder when I am maneuvering. But to a lot of civilians we are considered extraordinary (god like?) and they assume we will keep everything OK. I know, I used to have those thoughts and be taught that mentality.

Even worse, has anyone here ever been briefed very well in a civilian flight school about low level routes? I know I sure wasn't! They were described to me as a spot where planes will be going really fast near the ground....AND THATS IT!!!! Again, i think the assumption was that the military guys would see us. And we were only really instructed to be on the look out when we actually crossed the little line on the sectional. As if the jets are going to be tracking EXACTLY along that line. We were TOLD that was how it worked. Not too big a surprise, really, as the instructors--even with several thousand hours--had no more idea about what went into a low-level than the students did. My lookout on a LL is probably a ton better than doing TACFORM in a MOA or something, but it is still scary knowing how little regard a civilian will probably have for that route. And again, although I do wake up and piss excellence, every once in a blue moon I might stray a touch off dead-centerline from the route.

I wish there was some way for us (military pilots) to give a better understanding to the civies about exactly what we are doing in those areas. I think it would help avoid some real problems.

Thoughts?

 

[wink]

Maybe I can use this as a springboard for the fact that civilian pilots don't get nearly enough training about dealing with Military Operating Areas, alert areas, and most of all VR Routes.

I think there is a mentality in the light-civil world from a lot of people that military pilots are better than they are, and have better systems than we really do. I know when I learned to fly little Archers (even at a part 141 school) we were told that it is OK to fly through MOA's and to just keep a lookout. They did say probably wasn't a good idea, but there were none too close to where the airport was ergo little more was ever said about it. There was kind of an underlying thought that those military aircraft have super-awesome radar (they must, because ALL military aircraft have air-to-air radar, right?) and the pilots are so good they will spot us a long way off.

While I will be the first to admit that I am in fact awesome, and a SH pilot, I don't always see every piece of traffic. And it gets a lot harder when I am maneuvering. But to a lot of civilians we are considered extraordinary (god like?) and they assume we will keep everything OK. I know, I used to have those thoughts and be taught that mentality.

Even worse, has anyone here ever been briefed very well in a civilian flight school about low level routes? I know I sure wasn't! They were described to me as a spot where planes will be going really fast near the ground....AND THATS IT!!!! Again, i think the assumption was that the military guys would see us. And we were only really instructed to be on the look out when we actually crossed the little line on the sectional. As if the jets are going to be tracking EXACTLY along that line. We were TOLD that was how it worked. Not too big a surprise, really, as the instructors--even with several thousand hours--had no more idea about what went into a low-level than the students did. My lookout on a LL is probably a ton better than doing TACFORM in a MOA or something, but it is still scary knowing how little regard a civilian will probably have for that route. And again, although I do wake up and piss excellence, every once in a blue moon I might stray a touch off dead-centerline from the route.

I wish there was some way for us (military pilots) to give a better understanding to the civies about exactly what we are doing in those areas. I think it would help avoid some real problems.

Thoughts?

I agree. But like your experience, most pilots don't have to worry about military special use airspace because it isn't near their home base. Very expensive training time can be spent better on other subjects like spins. No wait, they don't do that either . I have found however, and this includes the aforementioned Gladden MOA, that the military does a pretty good job of out reach to inform and train the local civ folks to the threats associated with ill advised, though legal, flights in and around mil SUA. By the way. It ain't all civ guys that do legal but unwise things. I have seen a few VR routes that pass directly over or thru the departure or arrival paths of uncontrolled airfields. It is legal to smoke on down the VR route at 420+kts without climbing above the pattern but is it wise? It is done by the military all the time. All in all, I think the military and civ air get along pretty well.

 

[mb1k]

After school community outreach program where you get up in front of a room full of FBO trust-fund-kid-pilot-@$$clowns and urinate your "excellence" on them?!?

 

[HuggyU2]

Wink,
OK, I see your point.
I still doubt a nugget would pull this off, though. We all know plenty of good aviators that would bypass their 2000+ hours of experience, and "teach this guy a lesson".