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Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm............

draad

draad

Member
jmcquate said:
He armed an AIM-9 on an exercise that was not a shootex. He blew the tial off of an RF-4C. He was not set up to fail........he failed.
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He was also told "Red and free on your contact" when loaded with an AIM-9 on an exercise, and "oh by the way" the Navy didn't brief the pilots on the backup mission that it had approved with the Airforce. I'm not saying the guy (AND his higher ranking flight officer) didn't fail, I'm simply saying there are a number of things in that chain reaction that, if one had been removed, the whole incident could have been avoided. My point is that it's more than a handful of poeples' fault, it's operating procedures that needed tweaking, and training that needed tweaking as well. The whole mantra of flying is "learn from others' mistakes to avoid making the same ones" but we are straying more and more from that and turning it into a blame game. I'm not defending him, I'm saying the focus should be more on improving things rather than on how someone failed within the system.
 
M

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
The ability to go "maybe I should NOT fire on a friendly" is why we don't put air defense systems in auto.

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M

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
What determines critical mass for hinges? Does it depend on the density of their skulls, and if there is an initiation source (say upcoming FITREPs) to help the reaction along?

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jmcquate

jmcquate

Well-Known Member
Contributor
D
draad said:
He was also told "Red and free on your contact" when loaded with an AIM-9 on an exercise, and "oh by the way" the Navy didn't brief the pilots on the backup mission that it had approved with the Airforce. I'm not saying the guy (AND his higher ranking flight officer) didn't fail, I'm simply saying there are a number of things in that chain reaction that, if one had been removed, the whole incident could have been avoided. My point is that it's more than a handful of poeples' fault, it's operating procedures that needed tweaking, and training that needed tweaking as well. The whole mantra of flying is "learn from others' mistakes to avoid making the same ones" but we are straying more and more from that and turning it into a blame game. I'm not defending him, I'm saying the focus should be more on improving things rather than on how someone failed within the system.
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During an exercise, there is a chance that CIC will grant you a pretend "Red and free on your contact" where in turn you are allowed to take a pretend heat shot at a Phantom that you most likely have a VID.
 
pilot_man

pilot_man

Ex-Rhino driver
pilot
draad said:
He was also told "Red and free on your contact" when loaded with an AIM-9 on an exercise, and "oh by the way" the Navy didn't brief the pilots on the backup mission that it had approved with the Airforce. I'm not saying the guy (AND his higher ranking flight officer) didn't fail, I'm simply saying there are a number of things in that chain reaction that, if one had been removed, the whole incident could have been avoided. My point is that it's more than a handful of poeples' fault, it's operating procedures that needed tweaking, and training that needed tweaking as well. The whole mantra of flying is "learn from others' mistakes to avoid making the same ones" but we are straying more and more from that and turning it into a blame game. I'm not defending him, I'm saying the focus should be more on improving things rather than on how someone failed within the system.
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I'm pretty sure you're just trolling along here. There have been plenty of firebreaks put into place so this doesn't happen again, but those procedures don't remove an aviators duty to not be a complete idiot. Any time you shoot or drop anything from an aircraft that is intended to kill people, you'd better be really damn sure that the recipient of that object deserves it.
 
Uncle Fester

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I got volunteered to be an LNO with a Patriot battery for Red Flag one year. I'll just say: nice guys, but my take-away was never, ever fly into a Patriot MEZ.
 
AirPirate

AirPirate

Active Member
pilot
I'm going to disagree with all of you guys too and I'm not even trolling. If you want to escape the zero defect mentality, you're going to have to suck it up with some major defects. You're going to have to live with things you wouldn't think you should have to. You just can't say this zero defect mentality is killing us, except for....etc. etc., and start creating the same chain of exceptions that built the mentality in the first place. Balance is the goal. Without it, we have what we see today. I'd welcome this Dorsey guy in because I can already envision the list of shitbirds and morons with flawless records who are already in positions of great responsibility that outnumber him 100 to 1. This Dorsey cat is the least of your problems. He might even be a good fit for the job for all we know.

JD81 said:
Seen this first hand in the very recent past, costing JO's their designator and sometimes their AD naval career (over problems NOWHERE near the level of what this thread is about).
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As has been repeated since the dawn of time. If there was ever a constant in this business (as in most businesses), it's that there will never be a shortage of people gunning for you. Where there's a reason, there's a way and people will seek it out to stab each other in the back, pull each other down, and discredit everyone around them in order to claw their way to the top or keep as many people in the same bucket as themselves. If anything, if today's JOs are losing their jobs because of a bad hair day, that speaks more to the failure of the system than promoting Dorsey ever could.

Recovering LSO said:
Ensign is it? Please walk into your student control office THIS morning and let them know that you DO NOT want to select any aircraft that carries forward firing ordnance. If its too late for that conversation then you really ought to reconsider some of your comments - start with (paraphrase), its the internet's fault...
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Of course personal accountability is paramount, but all draad said was no one could hold 100% of the responsibility. Personal accountability keeps our amazing machine working as well as it does, but if everyone else in the system is too busy pointing fingers to admit they could have affected the problem, then we have a serious F-ing problem. This, in no way, should give a pilot any sense of relief for error or reason to believe error is acceptable, but it should give pause to leaders in the vicinity of error. Not that going into CYA mode for their precious careers is the right answer, but to understand the problems and prevent them. When something bad happens, everyone should bow their heads in shame in unison if we're going to be on the same side. It's the ones who always hold their heads up high and scoff that I worry about. There is more than enough tearing each other down to go around out there.
 
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