Good idea or not?

[Brett327]

I think that's different, not quite apples to apples. I personally think it's a choice to be gay (I realize that's an argument unto itself) but you can't really "choose" to be black.



The problem as I see it is that it seems if you disagree with being gay it automatically means you hate gays. That's not the case in most situations I've seen but when it comes out that "hey, Johnny doesn't agree with homosexuality" it degrades into a name-calling, slug-fest, hatred laced speech instead of it simply being a question of "why?".

Where I grew up was very much Bible-belt southern Baptist area so there was an overwhelming disagreement to homosexuality but the funny thing is, I knew several gay people in high school and no one gave a shit. It is possible to disagree with someone and still be friends with them and I think that point is lost on many in this day and age.

The choice issue doesn't even apply. Replace Gay with Christian, then use that as a basis for discrimination - it's all the same. It's all fucked up.

Tiz, I hear ya,but like I said above - a group is a group. Racial, ethnic, religious or sexual orientation - some of it you might be born with, other stuff may be a personal choice. Whatever the stereotypes may be (or however accurate they are), we do those groups a disservice by condoning prejudice. I know you get it, just clarifying my point for everyone.

 

[Harrier Dude]

The choice issue doesn't even apply. Replace Gay with Christian, then use that as a basis for discrimination - it's all the same. It's all fucked up..

Speak ill of the gay community and you're a hateful bigot.

Bash a Christian and you are an enlightened intellectual.

It hasn't always been that way. Not long ago the above statements were reversed. Maybe someday they will be again. More likely would be that we've found something else to berate and belittle each other over by then.

It's a free country. Say what you want, but stand ready to be judged for what you say.

 

[Brett327]

Speak ill of the gay community and you're a hateful bigot.

Bash a Christian and you are an enlightened intellectual.

It hasn't always been that way. Not long ago the above statements were reversed. Maybe someday they will be again. More likely would be that we've found something else to berate and belittle each other over by then.

It's a free country. Say what you want, but stand ready to be judged for what you say.

I agree with your final statement. I'm certainly not a proponent of Christianity, but I try to judge them on their actions, not their beliefs.

 

[Harrier Dude]

I agree with your final statement. I'm certainly not a proponent of Christianity, but I try to judge them on their actions, not their beliefs.

I wasn't necessarily directing that at you, Brett. More of a statement about society in general.

The things that are kosher to be against (to varying degrees of severity) change over time.

I am a Christian. I'm proud of that, and I'm willing to share my thoughts/path about that to anybody who's genuinely interested in joining me in that journey. But I won't drag anybody into it, and I won't belittle anybody who disagrees with me about it. I would appreciate it if I wasn't hated for it, but I'm prepared for that and I don't really care.

Now take the paragraph above and substitute gay for Christian. I would imagine that's how 99% of gay people feel, but I don't know that for sure. I'd let them speak for themselves.

 

[phrogdriver]

I'm a Christian myself, though I doubt the congregation I worshipped with in NC would care for the congregation I worship with in CA. I don't mind frank discussion of any topic, religion and sexuality included. I think our societal taboos on discussing race, religion, and sex allow prejudice to fester under the surface like a cancer. I can believe someone's completely wrong without believing they're a bad person. That's lost on many on the left and right.

Everyone is oppressed nowadays. Blacks, gays, Christians, Jews, hispanics.... I wonder how there's anyone left to do the oppressing. Must be those 1% folks, except they're apparently oppressed, too.

Just because I thought it was funny.

 

[BACONATOR]

Took a minute.... Still not sure how you're caricature of a bigoted, hate spewing Southerner is much different from the ignorant image that was painted by those you're so critical of.

I'm NOT defending comments made here about homosexuals, but I am correctly pointing out the hypocrisy in your judgements.

The point was that the drivel that gay-haters in the military spread gives a backbone too all sorts of stereotypes for us in the military.... such as the one I mentioned. I certainly don't think you should tailor your beliefs because of what others will think about you, but I also don't want to be lumped into a category with idiot bigots because I am in the military.

 

[insanebikerboy]

The choice issue doesn't even apply. Replace Gay with Christian, then use that as a basis for discrimination - it's all the same. It's all fucked up.

Is disagreement equal or synonymous with discrimination though? Religion and sexual orientation are sets of moral beliefs and not everyone has the same moral code, so does disagreeing with one or the other necessarily mean you are automatically discriminating against them?

 

[phrogdriver]

Is disagreement equal or synonymous with discrimination though? Religion and sexual orientation are sets of moral beliefs and not everyone has the same moral code, so does disagreeing with one or the other necessarily mean you are automatically discriminating against them?

That was my point earlier. Can you work and live along someone who might be "going to hell" because his religion is different? Would you be able to not lecture him or be a pain in the ass? Then do the same thing for gays, and maybe you'll be all right. Besides, people choose their religion, they don't choose to be gay.

 

[PhrogLoop]

Is disagreement equal or synonymous with discrimination though? Religion and sexual orientation are sets of moral beliefs and not everyone has the same moral code, so does disagreeing with one or the other necessarily mean you are automatically discriminating against them?

Disagreement on personal, moral or religious grounds is valid (or at least defensible). Equating homosexuality with pedophelia is not.

 

[Harrier Dude]

Disagreement on personal, moral or religious grounds is valid (or at least defensible). Equating homosexuality with pedophelia is not.

Why?

If somebody can back up that relationship with facts, studies, or reasoned analysis, then why do you just reject it out of hand.

Let somebody make the case and either accept it or reject it on its merits (or lack thereof).

 

[phrogdriver]

They have done those studies. They show that the connection isn't there. If anything, straights are more likely to be pedophiles.

Besides, do we really want our treatment of minorities to be based on statistics? Some minorities commit crimes at a higher rate than the general population. Maybe we should discriminate against them some more. Hell, there's a stronger relationship between being a Catholic clergyman and being a pedophile than being gay and being a pedophile. Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to be around children, either.

Or, maybe we should do what our teachers told us and try our best to judge people as individuals.

 

[PhrogLoop]

Why?

If somebody can back up that relationship with facts, studies, or reasoned analysis, then why do you just reject it out of hand.

Let somebody make the case and either accept it or reject it on its merits (or lack thereof).

Here you go:
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

 

[Harrier Dude]

That's all well and good, but that wasn't my point.

I just don't believe in sacred cows. Nothing is above being questioned or subjected to rational analysis. Questioning the value, causes, effects, and origins of homosexuality are not beyond the pale, as many would have you believe.

If somebody wants to opine that homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles, or man never made it to the moon, or President Obama wasn't born in the US, or 9/11 was an inside job........then fine. Go ahead and make your case. Try to persuade me.

Just don't be surprised if I (or the vast majority of other people) fail to be convinced and then begin to question your thought process.

Eventually the ones that prattle on without any support just get tuned out.

 

[gparks1989]

That's all well and good, but that wasn't my point.

I just don't believe in sacred cows. Nothing is above being questioned or subjected to rational analysis. Questioning the value, causes, effects, and origins of homosexuality are not beyond the pale, as many would have you believe.

If somebody wants to opine that homosexuals are more likely to be pedophiles, or man never made it to the moon, or President Obama wasn't born in the US, or 9/11 was an inside job........then fine. Go ahead and make your case. Try to persuade me.

Just don't be surprised if I (or the vast majority of other people) fail to be convinced and then begin to question your thought process.

Eventually the ones that prattle on without any support just get tuned out.

The problem is that whenever there is a discussion of the moral implications of homosexuality, it is overwhelmingly influenced by one's religious views. Off the top of my head, I know of no religion that "permits" homsexuality, and so religious folks tend to be against it.

Viewed from a different perspective, what about other "immoral" behaviors? Premarital/interracial sex? 90% of the junk on tv? Other religions? Why stop at homosexuality in having a frank discussion about morality in society? That's one of the biggest issue. Not directed at Harrier Dude, just some food for thought from the morality crowd...

 

[Harrier Dude]

The problem is that whenever there is a discussion of the moral implications of homosexuality, it is overwhelmingly influenced by one's religious views. Off the top of my head, I know of no religion that "permits" homsexuality, and so religious folks tend to be against it.

Viewed from a different perspective, what about other "immoral" behaviors? Premarital/interracial sex? 90% of the junk on tv? Other religions? Why stop at homosexuality in having a frank discussion about morality in society? That's one of the biggest issue. Not directed at Harrier Dude, just some food for thought from the morality crowd...

I don't think it's an overwhelmingly religious issue. And many religions accept (to varying degrees) homosexuality. I'll grant that a greater percentage do not, though. The Episcopal Church supposedly allows gay priests (I'm not Episcopal, so not sure).

As far as limiting debate of morality to homosexuality.....I completely agree. The more frank discussions we have about contentious moral issues, the better chance that maybe we can solve them. Or at least come to some civil agreements on common ground.